DARJEELING: Chicken’s neck under threat
Posted by barunroy on November 10, 2009
FROM THE STATESMAN
BY ROMIT BAGCHI
DARJEELING, 9 NOV: Several former Gorkha Army personnel today expressed worry over the security of what is known as the “chicken’s neck” in the strategic parlance that stretches from North Dinajpur to the Darjeeling district.
While addressing the symposium on Gorkhaland in Darjeeling today, they said that the strategically sensitive region might become extremely vulnerable from the security angle for India in view of a “possible instigation of tension by the Chinese Army.”
According to Brig NK Gurung, VSM (Retd), India can ignore the threat only to her peril.
“Though Communist China is unlikely to acerbate border tension to the point of an open conflagration with its eyes fixed on becoming the next global superpower, it would keep instigating border uncertainty to browbeat an ascendant India. We are at a disadvantage in view of the superior road and other infrastructure of our mighty neighbour and to add to the security alarm, the West Bengal government has been consistently ignoring the threat perception for reasons best known to it,” he said.
Speaking on the matter, a senior functionary of the ex-servicemen wing of the GJMM, Col Allay (Retd) said that the formation of the Gorkhaland state would prove the most effective security bulwark for the strategically sensitive region. “We have been tirelessly trying to impress the Centre on the wisdom of carving out a state for ourselves with the threat perception from across the Sino-Indian border assuming alarming proportions. The ‘chicken neck’ region would be best secured in the hands of a rejuvenated Gorkha community. The formation of the state we have been striving for would inspire us to foil surreptitious attempt on the part of our Communist neighbour to disturb stability in the region,” he added.
Amfoi said
Chicken neck,hen s neck,cock s neck etc etc….I ve had enough of this slander.Do u want to prove this as a badland ?
I dnt find any anti national activities going here.Frm where does this shit vulnerability coming ? There s a useless ‘wasteland’ called Nepal bordering West.And to feel challenged frm such land is like making a fool of himself.There s Bhootan equally impoverished n there s Sikkim ‘bandar ka rajya’ very lethargic.The only danger lingers frm Banga border.
I find sme commenting danger lurking frm Sikkim border ?Does India n China share frontier in Sikkim only ?
If this is a formidable excuse for demanding GL then its otherwise but it wld be better off not showing this land in poor light.
RAJA said
As per their view all border districts should be given statehood for safety of our country ….
kancha dai said
now if india is under attack then, what if darjeeling is occupied by chinese…do we become chinese or wat??
now chinki!! all will be in main stream with main stream china??
xyz said
LOL! Chinki Nepalis talking about chinese threat. By allowing Nepali foreigners to settle in DJ we have already gifted away a part of India to outsiders who are now allied with Chinese.
Today these Nepali wolves hardly bother to don their sheep’s disguise.
All these so called ex armymen are Nepalis from villages of Nepal and therefore not even citizens of India. Today they r showing their true colors.
Biggest threat to India’s security is our corrupt and “secular” politicians and a weak cowardly ppl like the Bengalis who have time and again allowed foreigners to occupy India with hardly putting up any resistance. Keep wearing bangles.
xyz said
Chinki Nepalis have already occupied DJ so what threats from China are we talking about? China has already captured the Chicken India by the neck. Thanks to our policies of appeasing treacherous foreigners and illegal immigrants. Jai Ho.
spider said
Speaking on the matter, a senior functionary of the ex-servicemen wing of the GJMM, Col Allay (Retd) said that the formation of the Gorkhaland state would prove the most effective security bulwark for the strategically sensitive region. “We have been tirelessly trying to impress the Centre on the wisdom of carving out a state for ourselves with the threat perception from across the Sino-Indian border assuming alarming proportions……………………………bullshit,col alley don’t even know wjere is north fat ass
spider said
these joker in hill’s don’t understand that india is union of state..not fedral like usa…after banning liquir and all stupid things …i thing bimal and his party going to have big trouble after march….west bengal is just waiting till march.
Hilsa frm BD said
Union of state…uummm…Not federal.Seems u debunked political science class when ur teacher was teaching u.
Maakoora said
There are quite a few issues because of which formation of Gorkhaland would be the only option.
Now “those issues” cannot be loosely discussed. Suffice it to say, what has already been said.
Despite years of considered opinions being expressed by experienced citizens who matter – how the Governments have not heeded for electoral politics, could cost dearly.
There was need for a peoples’ uprising and constitutional political movement even to implement such authoritative reports on national issues!
If YOU “jokers” still want to know what those issues are, attend the next tripartite and let us address them politically.
Prevarication as well as procrastination is hardly a virtue.
xyz said
#8 Mr. Maakoora
What are those issues because of which Gorkhaland is the only option?
For me creation of Gorkhaland is surrendering a part of India to Nepal thereby lending credibility to the concept of greater Nepal. Creation of Gorkhaland is akin to surrendering Arunachal Pradesh to China or Kashmir to Pakistan. These same ppl who are demanding GL are talking about protecting India from China, a country that is backing GJMM?
The point here is are these people demanding GL citizens of India or Nepal? By all indications 80 to 90% of ppl demanding GL are citizens of Nepal.
This people’s uprising that you are talking about is led by Nepali masses who are entering India due to economic failure in Nepal and who want to secure their position in India by forming GL.You think GOI and our administration is full of fools who are not aware about ground reality?
How can the GL movemnet be “constitutional” when ppl who are leading this movement are citizens of Nepal and do not fall under the constitution of India?
I agree the Govt has not heeded for electoral politics and it will cost dearly but not the way you are expecting. If you are an ex Indian armyman you will know better.
Hilsa frm BD said
Wat evidence do u ve to prove that GJM is supported by Chin. ?
better I wld suggest u to ask ur CPIM,CPI cadres y they supported China during 1962 war when Gorkhas were shedding blood in the border.
xyz said
Ans is simple the entire cost of GJMM’s operation including GLP runs into several crores. This is as per their own statements. Who is funding this operation? Local sources of funds will only be few lakhs not crores.
Besides this, the entire GL movement in it’s current form is too slick to be launched by a truck driver. This movement’s masterminds go all the way to Beijing. No wonder the Govt is appointing an Army General as interlocutor.
Hilsa frm BD said
C my boy China is not concerned with all those happening in India.It does ve interest and to take care of that,it has nurtured Paki,Burma,BD etc etc.Do u think it will be at loggerheads with India when it rubbing shoulders with USA ?
Wat nonsense.
Btw the money u r talking abt is frm our own mint at Patleybas,Darj.
xyz said
C my boy you have no answer. The mint is in Kolkata, not Patleybas. A quick back of the envelop calculation reveals that entire GJMM operation per month runs into several crores. Where is this fund flowing from? The Tea Industries, extortion etc wont amount to several crores per month.
You are certainly kidding that China is not concerned about India. Why is it so desperate to isolate and surround India? Who is behind the Maoists in India and Nepal? Maoists in India today are not only equipped with RPG but they are manufacturing them along with other automatic weapons. From where have they learn’t such advanced guerrilla tactics? Your Nepali GJMM will also resort to similar tactics after Dec 21st.
China is rubbing far more vigorously it’s shoulders with USA than India. Check the massive current account surplus that China enjoys over USA.
Maakoora said
Dear Mr. Xyz @ #9,
1. Although by your first sentence you have, kind of, proven yourself, I wouldn’t like to call fellow bloggers names. From your standard of articulation, it appears that we could enter into healthy discussion on matters of importance to fellow Indians and take these blogging into a slightly higher plane.
2. Yes you are right, the concept of greater Nepal was never ever credible nor will it ever be in future. People of proposed Gorkhaland, including their future generation will never allow that.
3. Creation of Gorkhaland will be akin to empowering the ethnically non-Indian looking Indian citiizens of Arunachal Pradesh to feel a sense of belonging to the national mainstream, so as to strengthen Indian defences against China; or akin to genuinely embracing people of Kashmir as 1st class citizens of India so as to dissuade Pakistan from their nefarious designs.
4. Only in the creation of Gorkhaland, the possible free flow of Chinese subvertsive Maoists through Nepal into the Northeast India will be averted. How?? I’ll tell you later. But yes, you are right, GOI and our administration is well aware about ground reality of all our not-so-friendlly neighbouring countries who are conniving with the hissing dragon to steadily increase its pincer grip over . . . you know where.
5. Dear Mr. Xyz! Your contention in paras 3, 4 and 5 is a non-issue, to say the least. Ignorance of law is no excuse.
Have a good day.
Hilsa frm BD said
Frm where r the Moaists getting support ?
….
Moaists or Adivasis ???
For so many long years u suppressed them under feet.You oppressed them under the garb of communism n deprived them govt jobs like you did to us.No development took place n all govt exchequer emptied by ur kin n kith.
And now u asking who s supporting Maoists.
xyz said
Maakoora you sound like PBKU.
Anyway name doesn’t matter but the thoughts behind that does.
You my dear sir have averted a direct question with lot of mellifluous English garbage. I asked you “What are those issues because of which Gorkhaland is the only option?” And I didn’t get any answer to my query.
The only issue for which Gorkhaland is the only option, is legitimizing 12.5 Nepali citizens living in India as per 1950 treaty into Indian Citizens.This entire exercise is like illegal money laundering i.e. a tool to convert something illegitimate into legitimate. Apart from this there is no justification for creation of GL.
2. How do you justify GL, isn’t it asking for Greater Nepal thru the back door? The people who are demanding GL are primarily citizens of Nepal living in India as legal residents. So GL has no credibility even now but being tolerated due to India’s vote bank politics and importance of appearing to being secular even at the cost of nation’s interests.
3.So now people of Arunachal Pradesh have become non Indian? You think a Madrasi looking person is Indian? A Parsi looking person is Indian? A Punjabi looking person is Indian? A Kashmiri looking person is Indian? Jarawas of A&N islands look Indian? Adivasis look Indian?
If you think anyone who looks like a mongol will automatically consider himself a non-Indian? Why are they then chasing the mongoloid Nepalis out of NE?
People of Kashmir think they are second class citizens? Why don’t you ask this question to Kashmiri Pandits who are the sons of the soil?
How come people who are being funded and abetted by the Chinese help in India’s defense against Chinese? Isn’t this catch 22 situation? Btw, DJ does not share any border with China, hence why all of a sudden this GJMM predilection of India’s security against Chinese threats from across the border?
Good day to you too my dear sir.
xyz said
#15 If no development took place in DJ then how come it is the second to Kolkata in terms of everything?
Your Govt is Govt of Nepal. You are legal residents not citizens. You ppl are the ones who are a constant drain on India’s resources by not paying taxes, electricity bills, telephone bills, public utilities and hindering the smooth running of the state thru subversive activities. Boy you guys don’t know your limits. That’s why you are being chased out from everywhere.
Go and ask your country Nepal to give you Govt Jobs. You are not Indians hence you don’t deserve anything from us. Inspite of giving you everything you have turned out to be ungrateful wretches. When you are deported back to Nepal you will appreciate West Bengal.
Hilsa frm BD said
Wat abt u ?
Go n look urself at the mirror n introspect.
The big three dists Bankura,Purulia,Medinipur abound the Adivasi population.The bordering dists like Malda,Dinajpur,Murshidabad r Moslem dists.Where r u ?In Kolkata !!Wait….be patient you ll be left with only dhoti n kurta like u had been bfore.
Ha ha..
xyz said
#19 You are correct Nepali Hilsa. If you read my earlier comments this is what I have been harping on all along.
Our treacherous politicians who have allowed treacherous foreigners like you unrestricted access to our country and lotus eating Bengali population who prefer to day dream 24 X 7, will most probably ensure your prediction turns out to be true.
patleybaskounpad said
xyz..
i am not M….
i empathize with your sense of insecurity but then you cannot form a worldview through the borrowed spectacles of unfounded fears…
though i have to give it to you that the money laundering allusion was a masterful exercise in sophistic reasoning…
the ground reality though is that, the bona fide indian nepalis/gorkhas (yes that breed does exist) find the nepali interlopers as much of a threat as the rest of bengal….so the question of creating GL to give these specimens a blank check does not arise at all…..
secondly you keep on harping on the fact that a majority of the Nepali/gorkha population of the hills are recent imports from Nepal…but where are the figures to back up that hunch ?…
most of the times i see here in beacon a kind of a slanging match going on between folks who berate the other, for either siding with the nepalese or the bangladeshis…though if you were to call yourself an indian you would appreciate the fact that a treaty
that india has made with nepal gives nepali citizens full right to indulge in all manner of livelihood here in india (except indulging in politics)…while unfortunately the bangladeshis can do the same things under the pejorative of being refugees…
of course if you want to change the status quo you may perhaps want your thoughts to resonate with others so that it snowballs into a political movement..
till that happens i feel you are fighting for a lost cause…
p.s the way the world and economies are moving it is inevitable that with global cash flows you will have movement of populations…
and with global warming resulting in rising sea levels it is also inevitable that denizens of low lying areas such as the banglaeshis will move uphill wholesale to save their skins…
Anonymous said
@21. Nation states with rigid demarcated boundaries are a post world war II phenomena…. human populations have always ‘moved’ through millennia and are finding ways of doing so even now despite all boundaries…..
Perhaps, it is high time the world accepted the natural and modified its policies to best utilise its ‘potentials’, instead of going against nature…. anyway the current predicament of the world is showing us that the ‘technocrats’ have failed miserably…..
Perhaps a more holistic and integrative ‘old’ thinking is required to change situations for the better ?
RAJA said
why chicken neck suddenly become under threat!! threat from whom?? China?? all bullshit …. India or china not going fight each others …they are busy with business war against eah other now and that will continue in future too ….
Maakoora said
Xyz @ #17,
As I have said at the outset in #9 “those are serious issues” that cannot be LOOSELY discussed in forum like this. It’ll be done at the right place at the right time.
A respected and responsible officer wouldn’t just mention it in the passing.
Tarantula said
@24. Bull shit!
@Raja : I agree.
Pradip said
‘GORKHAS SHEDDING BLOOD FOR INDIAN SECURITY’!!
Dear Nepali Brothers, people have become sick of the monotonous mumbling of the above stale phrase. People have to do the their job for which they are paid for.
PJ said
Dear Bangali Pardeep,
Please show some respect to the brave soldiers who have been constantly guarding the country. But it seems you are the Maoists sympathizer as clearly shown by you utter disrespect in the other thread. You treacherous bastards!!!
xyz said
Nepali PJ
you are a citizen of Nepal and living in Nepal. Why are you so desperately snooping around this blog? Perhaps you harbor dreams of Greater Nepal? Maoists sympathizers are you Nepalis who are being armed and funded by the Chinese and shedding crocodile tears in this anti India blog.
Nepalis in our armed forces are similar to the “bahadurs” who guard our houses. They do it for money not out of any love for India. It’s a job for which they get paid so people should not use this to emotionally blackmail an entire nation.Their loyalty and efficiency was brought out very well in the last Kargil war where there were hardly any Gorkha casualties.
Personally I find this practice of recruiting Nepalis in our armed forces extremely abhorrent.It reeks of slave trade. No self respecting country will allow it’s citizens to be employed in armed forces of foreign countries and no decent self respecting country with 1 billion population employ foreigners to guard it’s border. This just shows that the British have left more than half a century ago, but their colonial practices are still being carried on.
Surprisingly the Madhesis of Nepal who are our close cousins are not recruited in the Indian Army. So many Indian communities whose regiments had been abolished by the British, due to their participation in India’s independence struggle, are yet to have a regiment of their community even after more than 60 yrs of India’s independence. The Indian Army still follows the racist martial race theory when it comes to recruiting troops.
PJ said
Dear Demented XYZ (thats all you are ever going to be!!!)
“you are a citizen of Nepal and living in Nepal. Why are you so desperately snooping around this blog? Perhaps you harbor dreams of Greater Nepal? Maoists sympathizers are you Nepalis who are being armed and funded by the Chinese and shedding crocodile tears in this anti India blog.”
Yes, I am very much living in Nepal, however you are sorely mistaken when you say i am a citizen of Nepal, I am Indian and i don’t have to prove to you anything about my authenticity. I love Nepal very very very much after having lived here all these years, anyways what is it to you? A far as Greater Nepal goes, you sound very threatened by such a small country, why? Just because you recently managed to flee across the border from BD?? Because as far as i know, proper Indian Bengalis will never think the way your bigoted mind works. BTW, what do you have to say about the Maoists in Bengal, they are Bengalis right?
Nepalis in our armed forces are similar to the “bahadurs” who guard our houses. They do it for money not out of any love for India. It’s a job for which they get paid so people should not use this to emotionally blackmail an entire nation.Their loyalty and efficiency was brought out very well in the last Kargil war where there were hardly any Gorkha casualties.
so do you mean to say that the more soldiers die, it proves their loyalty? Again a very poor grasp on things.
Personally I find this practice of recruiting Nepalis in our armed forces extremely abhorrent.It reeks of slave trade. No self respecting country will allow it’s citizens to be employed in armed forces of foreign countries and no decent self respecting country with 1 billion population employ foreigners to guard it’s border. This just shows that the British have left more than half a century ago, but their colonial practices are still being carried on.
Surprisingly the Madhesis of Nepal who are our close cousins (a langur could be your closest cousin, if you thing about it carefully) are not recruited in the Indian Army. So many Indian communities whose regiments had been abolished by the British, due to their participation in India’s independence struggle, are yet to have a regiment of their community even after more than 60 yrs of India’s independence. The Indian Army still follows the racist martial race theory when it comes to recruiting troops.
Are you trying say that you are above GOI and the Indian army? who are you trying to blame anyways?
See the point is no matter by what profanities you call us, no matter how much you whine…YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT BECAUSE YOU KNOW DEEP WITHIN YOUR DEMENTED MIND “HOW WRONG YOU ARE!!!!!”
Now go play pocket billiards
xyz said
Dear Pajama (PJ)
How come a Nepali living more than 7 years in Nepal be an Indian? LOL
India feeling threatened by Nepal? What a joke. I am against garbage like you from Nepal piling up in my backyard and my govt trying to prove that garbage now belongs to me.
Only a Nepali Ass888e will keep harping Bangladesh, Bangladesh. Do you know that Bangladesh was part of Bengal? Hindu Bengalis can live anywhere in Bengal due to the partition.Whereas you are here due to the British colonial rule.You bastards are not one of us. You have screwed up your own country and now want to encroach on ours. Do you have any problem in Nepalis settling anywhere in Nepal?
The Maoists in Bengal are the same Chinese backed ppl like the Nepali GJMM whose agenda is to ruin and destabilize India.
If you win a battle without casualties it means something different. When you are losing a battle and there are hardly any casualties what does it proves? No one was fighting. And when the commanding officer is found dead what does it indicates? That most probably he was killed by his own men for asking them to move forward. Guess a Nepali moron like u will know at least this much.
Sure we can’t do anything that’s why your lover Jassu Bhaiyya who was unceremoniously kicked out of BJP is preaching you guys to be calm along with other Nepali leaders who have brains better than yours. And the GOI is sending a hangman as “interlocutor”.LOL! Sure our internet comments are not having any effects.
Now go chase a female Nepali langur with a bottle of raakshi.
zyx said
Who pays XYZ for spending so much time here with pointless arguments?
Arun said
HE IS PAID BY WASTE BANGAAL GOVERNMENT
Phoenix Within said
huh!
Maakoora said
One may add here that Gorkhaland and its citizens will have truely imagined modern India and thus be the first UID compliant state to foster inclusive growth. I don’t want to insult the intelligence of fellow bloggers and so, I expect them to infer its implications.
xyz said
Dear Maakoora first we have to identify the millions of illegal Bangladeshis and legal residents from Nepal before we proceed with this exercise. Otherwise like our “democracy” this whole exercise will be a mockery of concept of India.
There can be no Gorkhaland in India as Nepalis or Gorkhas are not Indians but are like Chinese, Parsis, Bhutanese, Tibetans etc. who have settled here from a foreign country.Majority of Nepalis in India are legal residents not citizens.They are citizens of Nepal therefore have no locus standi in their demand for Gorkhaland in India.
This entire GL and discussion with Nepalis is unconstitutional and anti Indian which our leaders want to cloak under fake pseudo secularism.
Btw, if you discuss “those are serious issues” threadbare, you will come to know how hollow and down right seditious the concept of Gorkhaland is.
zyx said
West Bengal – No UID
Gorkhaland – completely UID compliant
Now, who prefers what for what reasons can be inferred too.
xyz said
West Bengal – State in India hence UID compliant
Gorkhaland – District in Nepal hence UID compliance does not arise.
Maakoora said
There you are Xyz, you have finally hit the nail bang on its head in para 1/#35.
Corollary to that, your contention in paras 2 & 3 hold no water at all, because even AFTER the excercise of issuing the UID, with all its ramifications, what is gonna be left in the proposed Gorkhaland area will be pucca Indians like you and me and one does not require a Palkiwala to reestablish its tenability.
Your last para therefore, is a tainted view, heavily laden with racist chauvinism!
Yam B Chand said
# 30
xyz,
How come a Nepali living more than 7 years in Nepal be an Indian?
———————————————————-
Then how can you expect NRIs living here in N. America invest in India or how do you claim NRIs winning Noble Prize or Astronauts like Kalpana Chawla as Indian ? PJ is a full fledged Indian citizen and has every right to live in Nepal or anywhere where he likes.
Here is a data, how muslims forced you out from Bangladesh/Pakistan after they got their own Muslim States:
Submitted by Rajiv Kaul (India), Apr 13, 2005 at 02:53
“Contrary to the comments Hindus were also cleansed out in 1947 from what is now know as Pakistan. The cleansing was a two-way traffic. But since 1947 the percentage of Hindus in Pakistan has gone from 25% to less than 1% while in India the Muslims have gone from 8% to 20%. ”
Muslims in India are given certificates to marry 4 women at at a time and multiply their population every year and most other people practice family planning. In a very short future non-Hindu bangladeshis might outnumber Bengalis in whole W Bengal, as they are already populating Assam.
xyz said
Yam Ji,
You are getting everything mixed up again.
You have mentioned NRIs i.e. Non Resident Indian, can a Nepali living for more than 7 years in Nepal claim to be Non Resident Indian or is he a Resident Nepali? LOL
Even if a Nepali like you wins Nobel prize, Nepalis can claim him or her as one of their own as by blood he is Nepali but by citizenship he may be Canadian/American.
Same logic applies when you count number of Nepali VC winners.
Phoenix Within said
@Makoora
“One may add here that Gorkhaland and its citizens will have truely imagined modern India and thus be the first UID compliant state to foster inclusive growth.”
How will It be the first UID compliant ’state’? Has there been any proposal regarding issue of UID to people in the Darj. hills? Can you elaborate?
Maakoora said
No ! I shall not !!
You find out !!!
xyz said
Dear Maakoora aka (Gorkha Spiderman).
Your last para therefore, is a tainted view, heavily laden with racist chauvinism!
————————————————————————————-
Let’s see what I have mentioned in my last para:
Btw, if you discuss “those are serious issues” threadbare, you will come to know how hollow and down right seditious the concept of Gorkhaland is.
Pardon me my dear sir I don’t find anything laden with “racist chauvinism” in the above statement. Can you pls point out any element of “racist chauvinism” in the above para? You too have resorted to JTM’s favorite antics.Whenever she is cornered she starts screaming “racism, racism”.
Why are you shirking from an open healthy debate on “those serious issues”? Isn’t this the very reason why this blog has been opened? If this is the approach of a well educated person like you, then can you imagine how thin is the ice on which concept of Gorkhaland is resting on?
Phoenix Within said
@Makoora
Well I understand that the UID is still at a very experimental stage with a ‘pilot’ to be conducted at far away Karnataka.
All can visit this site to know about this:
http://www.naavi.org/cl_editorial_09/edit_aug30_uid.htm
Anyway, Makoora, I think you have raised a very vital issue though your reasoning seems quite sophistic.
hmmmm
Phoenix Within said
I understand that the UID is for citizens of India. So Makoora …..
xyz said
Dear Maakoora aka (Gorkha Spiderman)
Corollary to that, your contention in paras 2 & 3 hold no water at all, because even AFTER the excercise of issuing the UID, with all its ramifications, what is gonna be left in the proposed Gorkhaland area will be pucca Indians like you and me and one does not require a Palkiwala to reestablish its tenability.
———————————————————————————————–
If this exercise is conducted strictly as per the 1950 Indo nepal treaty, 90% of DJ will turn out to be citizens of Nepal and remaining 10% citizens of India whose ancestors were again brought from Nepal by the British to toil in the British Colonial tea gardens, and who were not considered citizens of India as late as 1947. Can such group demand Gorkhaland in India? Doesn’t it sounds like Nepali occupation of Indian territory?
RAJA said
But the topic is CHICKEN NECK UNDER THREAT !!!
So Bimal daju & roshan bhaiya believe if GL creates then CHICKEN NECK will come out from external threat!!! what a logic !! ha ha ha …. they should come out with puckka stands why GL should be created …. if external threat becomes the reason for creation of a state then Indian Govt. has to create several states along all its border areas…. is that viable?
xyz said
#46
By that logic Srilankan Tamils will demand creation of separate state, Tibetans will demand their own state, Kukis will demand their own state, even Bangladeshis will start demanding their own state/states (reason cited: “to protect India from muslim Bangladesh”…LOL)
And our ch888ya GOI (aka GAI,BHAIS considering occupation of MPs n MLAs) will appoint “interlocutors” to discuss their “demands” and give them “autonomy” by asking the locals to vacate their land as it happened in 1947.
RAJA said
47.
Kukis are tribal group in NE of India and in myanmar ,mostly reside in nagaland …. they are very much Indian
xyz said
No majority of them are refugees from Burma as they came here after the military junta started counterinsurgency operations against them. If you want some flavor of Myanmar Counter Insurgency operations watch John Rambo aka Rambo Part 4 (of course it is based on fiction but it is based on what’s actually currently going on in Myanmar and the whole world is watching helplessly).
layman said
mostly reside in nagaland …. they are very much Indian
——————————————————
mr. narrator…but unfortunately they themselves don’t think they are….despite their unrelenting internecine battle with separatists nagas..which is a different story altogether.
One day, thanks to people like xyz…even gorkhas, sikkimese, bhutias, lepchas, rajbansis etc. will be bearing similar sentiment for reasons best known to Beacon online bloggers.
Amen.
xyz said
Yeah Layman we all know what has happened or rather how you Nepalis with the aid of British and later on GOI marginalised the sons of the soil of Sikkim. Something very similar to what we are witnessing in DJ.
Bhutias, Lepchas, Rajbanshis don’t have any issues with anyone. It is you Nepalis who first of all don’t belong to India, therefore, thru dubious means trying to make your presence secure and permanent, which currently is very precarious due to 1950 Indo Nepal treaty.
No wonder Nepalis are being hounded out of entire NE and Bhutan chucked the whole bunch of you out of their country.
layman said
52
Sweet talks? HA !!
First time SHIT is not oozing out of your filthy mouth
Yeah you declared rajbansis as TERRORISTS long back!!
XXX said
The Crow Xxx is crowing its own name.I suppose the BD Bongs gave him a heavy blow during partition n after 1973 affecting his whole bodily DNA including shattering his nervous system.Thats y he s always howling even at the dead of night,’ hu huu …Salim bhai,Obama bhai,Dawood master,Hakimullah bhai,pliz dun t thrash us,”pliz dun t rape our sisterr’,'give us our ancenstral property.’ hu huu…
RAJA said
54.
Mind your language brother ….. dont use the word “rape” of our sisters … how do u feel if I say how my nepali sisters being treated by bhutanese army in bhutan?? so I request you dont play with it as it’s sensitive issue..
xyz said
Layman
Just check their names and language, majority of Rajbanshis consider themselves Bengalis unlike u Nepalis who after living 1/2 a century in Bengal hv not been able to be a part of us, but busy converting a part of India into Nepal with diktats that resembles like that of Nazi’s in 1940’s Warsaw Jewish Ghetto.
Foreigners and outsiders are running amok in West Bengal and local people along with politicians have chosen to wear bangles instead of protecting their land.
layman said
Bhutias, Lepchas, Rajbanshis don’t have any issues with anyone
———————————————————-
Do you know Ladenla? Dr. Sonam Wangyal?
Do you know Gaulan Lepcha?
Do you know any of the members of KPP who share dais with your “nightmarish” BG?
Don’t tell me you din’t even know that Wilson Champamari is a Rajbanshi!!!
o O
xyz said
Raja just ignore XXX types as no one will pay heed to his childish comments. Real threat is from people who write lies and slanders in perfect English. Who play with ppl’s emotions with statements like “Gorkha log is desh ke liye khoon bahaya hai”, while at the same time comfortably discounting the role they played during British Raj and amount of Indians khoon had flowed thanks to Gorkhas.
MNOPQ said
xyz, should it not be the other way round, bengalis having resided in the land of rajbanshish and gorkhas should have considered themselves to be rajbanshis or gorkhas accordingly after living in their land for half a century? It just shows how fascist you are in taking pleasure of eliminating the rajbanshi culture and haveing converted them to bengalis. anyway, that is just your dream, go to the village heartlands of the rajbanshis and you will find what they consider themselves to be. They have distinct language, culture and are of mongolid descent. The only rajbanshis who consider themselves to be bengalis are the ones near the city areas and that too for narrow political gains from goonda parties like cpm.
why dont you take off the bangles from politicians and give them whatever you want to. We are ready for a showdown!!
xyz said
Layman
GJMM is even supporting Trinamool i.e. Mamata di. DO you mean just by supporting Wilson Champamari they become your supporters? Why are the same ppl massacring Nepalis in Assam?
My friend, politics makes strange bed fellows. These same communists whom you are raving and ranting against were your partners before they came in power in West Bengal.It’s they who created GL not you Nepalis. Like the party of union leaders that they are, they will make all kinds of treacherous rules and demands to get their way. It is thanks to these treacherous communists that you are surviving in West Bengal. The day a party like Amra Bangali comes to power, forget Gorkhaland, you very existence in West Bengal will be at stake considering the fact that GJMM’s supporters are primarily legal Nepali residents who want to make their position permanent in India. These communist bastards are playing the same game in GL that ruined Bengal economically i.e. allowing and abetting all kinds of self defeating atrocious demands like pay for no work, frequent strikes, bandhs, no dismissal of employees no matter how high their misconduct etc. etc.
layman said
same ppl massacring Nepalis in Assam
———————
They kill anyone but themselves. They don’t see if you are a Bengali, Bihari, Nepali !!
That’s why they are often referred to as SEPARATISTS!!
By your analogy students get curry bashed in Austria should prove ill of the victims, right?
layman said
Australia
xyz said
MNOPQ
It seems you have no Idea about India or Bengal. Almost all Bengalis have mongoloid blood in them. Bengali language differs from village to village. If I go to Bankura or Purulia, even I can’t understand their Bengali as it is very different from the Bangla we all know.
So after living 1/2 a century in Rajbanshi land do you call yourself Rajbanshi? Why are they so desperate to evict Nepalis from their land? You must be aware of recent killings in Assam?
Recently their leaders who have been captured have extended help to local administration in winding up this movement in Bengal. With gross mismanagement by the commies it is but natural that ppl living in the remote regions will feel alienated. If Bengal is revived economically, all these separatist movements except GL will be swept aside.
xyz said
Layman in Australia they are targeting all Indians and currently in Assam it is Nepalis. The current attack was specifically targeted against Nepalis not Biharis or Bengalis. They gave you ppl certain timeline to leave their land. Why? It was these same Rajbongshis who are targeting you Nepalis.
You also have frequent clashes with Adivasis. Why? Why do all ppl consider you to be parasites and want to get rid of you?
XXX said
Xyz
Sheikh Hasina has decided to give back Hindu Bongs confiscated land n property .Have u enlisted ur name there?
Btw dn t show off ur fine arrogant ego.You smell n stink like dried hilsa.You were the very ones who crossed over to India with just a lota leaving everything behind in Khulna,Rajsahi,Chhottogram n Dacca.My uncle says he saw a lot of u at Sealdeah station sleeping helplessly with all the filth n dirt u cowards had brought along in 1971 .He says he enjoyed very much to jump over ur asses at the station.
xyz said
MNOPQ
why dont you take off the bangles from politicians and give them whatever you want to. We are ready for a showdown!!
———————————————————————–
This statement shows you are one of those morons who believe crap like “Gorkhas are bravest of the brave”.
Why did you leave Bhutan without a whimper? Bhutan Army is a negligible force in comparison to mighty Gorkhas. There were 100,000 or more gorkhas who fled a tiny country like Bhutan.
You are only fueling your own doom with such stupid statements . Why do you think BG who has earlier faced Indian armed forces has now adopted “peaceful Gandhian” protest?
layman said
Dude, don’t imagine me as a dejected soul when you call me a foreigner or nepali or anything?
Why do all ppl consider you to be parasites and want to get rid of you?
——————————
BTW, can you talk in singular, like a ‘brave’ AAMRA BANGALI ACTIVIST as you have now underscored your racial affiliation? Why do you use plural words(e.g. all people consider…everyone hates you…..?
If you are sissy then I am sorry for you and if you are trying to demoralize me, then probably you are barking on the wrong tree!!
I don’t care to know who hates me or how many hates me…..
Use these tricks to frighten your hapless in-laws, who couldn’t offer the amount you wanted!!!
Is that fair enough? Ok !!
xyz said
#65 Go back to your “uncle” and hear more stories from him about “ass jumping”.
layman said
who believe crap like “Gorkhas are bravest of the brave”.
——————————————————
Dude it was not us who claimed that “crap”, it was the world !!!
Now you think the whole world is a crap, no?
URRRRRI BABA !!
xyz said
Layman
Do you think I am speaking to a single “Layman” or addressing my comments to a wider global audience?
If you check the number of hits this blog has managed to get from all over the world, it’s quite astounding.
layman said
addressing my comments to a wider global audience?
————————————————–
Dude, this is the difference between a cheap AAMRA BANGALI activist and an average GORKHA. While the former has to blow his own trumpet to prove his credibility, later is tossed in the air by likes of Manikshaw with words that resonate for decades…until people like you go deaf out of ….I don’t know !
layman said
addressing my comments to a wider global audience?
————————————————–
I did not know commenting on this blog makes you sing……” I am on the stage a thousand eyes on me”.
Try BANGLA IDOL, there is a better scope !!!
xyz said
#69
Layman
URRRRRI BABA why did you run away with lota n kambal from Bhutan, Assam, NE etc. etc?? Why for centuries were you afraid to ask your white masters to pay you equal salary? Even after serving entire life in their armed forces they didn’t allow you to live in their country till recently?
URRRRRRRRI BABA REEEEEEE why are there so few officers in the armed forces you serve? Why are you treated like garbage in the armed forces you serve? You know the role a “batman” plays for his officers?
Ore baba re bheri bheri brave only I don’t have the courage to ask equal pay lest they hit me with a spoon like they hit Oliver twist for asking “Sir can I have some more”.
layman said
73.
Can you come up with the better arguiment !!!
It has nothing to do with Gorkhaland !!!
It is like asking me to move one step closer in Darjeeling and
smell the bush fire in Bangladesh or Bhutan.
layman said
Use GOO gle or if you can’t utter a word without the word SHIT, use it as much as you want so I know how shitty you are!!
layman said
oops…read again:
Use GOO gle or if you can’t utter a meaningful sentence without the word SHIT, use it as much as you want so I know how shitty you are!!
xyz said
Layman brave ppl r the ones who rule the world not ones who work as servants,dishwashers, cooks in road side food carts, bahadurs, “batman”, ppl who get killed for foreigners in all kinds of shit places of the world for small salary and whose women work in red light areas. 1st protect your women then come and talk about bravery.
You are weak people fed on steady diet of bullshit.
patleybaskounpad said
#75..
i think you are falling into the trap…it would be good if you could answer the issues raised in #73..and especially since you have brought up the topic about the late field marshal, the man did not have any good things to say about GL…he refused to see Gorkhas as human beings with political aspirations, for him they were just soldiers..the trouble with that line of thought being you are a soldier for just the first 18 or so years of you life..rest of the time you are just a disgruntled civilian trying to fit in..
xyz…the issues that you have raised about the exploitation of the gorkhas could be raised about any community including the Bongs…who in that unkindest cut of all have been dealt a sad, bad blow by their very own…after all CPM which has presided over the funeral of Bengal is very much Bengali…..
layman said
1. Layman brave ppl r the ones who rule the world not ones who work as servants,dishwashers, cooks in road side food carts, bahadurs, “batman”, ppl who get killed for foreigners in all kinds of shit places of the world for small salary and whose women work in red light areas
——————————————————
Did I ask you to define bravery, I would have never asked that question to you. I Know pretty well, cowards can’t even define it properly!!!!!
2. . 1st protect your women then come and talk about bravery.
———————————————————
Which women? Bipasa who exposed herself in Raj or Riya Sen whose mms clips inundate the “desi” sights or are you talking about the paap actress, Udita Goswami?
Don’t tell me sona gacchi is in Darjeeling !!!
xyz said
#79 You are correct Layman I have no illusions of being “brave” and I know in order to survive if you encounter a force stronger than your own either you use stratagem or you retreat or you will be dead duck.
I was watching a vid titled war in Iraq. You know what one of the USAF pilots said? He said we don’t want to be brave, we want to use overwhelming odds to win our battles and defeat our enemy.What you associate with “bravery” is also known as “cannon fodder”.You will be surprised modern warfare has little room for “bravery” in the traditional sense.
Regarding your 2nd point I guess you Nepalis watch lot of porn no wonder “Nepal:Star sex video” is topping for well over a month. I have got only 1 question for you. How many Indians will you find in Red light districts of Nepal and how many Nepalis will you find in Red light districts of India?
Btw, who is Udita Goswami…you are talking about such unknown petty actresses.
xyz said
Layman
I have not watched any Bipasha or Riya sen movie in my entire life so I don’t know much about these actresses or their life style.
Phoenix Within said
@PBKU
Do you think the UID can solve the ‘citizenship issue’ of many Darjeelingays in any way ?
(Please refer to #44 and also Makoora)
Phoenix Within said
@Layman
Do you think the UID can solve the ‘citizenship issue’ of many Darjeelingays in any way ?
(Please refer to #44 and also Makoora)
patleybaskounpad said
UID will have to be ‘given’ so if Nadan Nilekani in all his wisdom has designed a fool proof solution to distribute the UID to people with the relevant bona fides instead of just falling back on other documentations(such as ration cards, gas cards or something else) which would have been acquired ‘anyway’ i don’t see how the citizenship issue can be solved…
but to be fair to the man the UID concept is not there to deal with ‘citizenship’ issues…the idea is to provide a comprehensive database of the population for various exercises…
in fact i would remind you to a current Umberto Eco involvement at the Louvres …the semiologist says making lists is a very human enterprise and one designed towards extracting some order out of the chaos..
you have to see this UID experiment in that light and not as a political exercise that provides surrogate solution to vexing issues that need to to be settled politically…
Phoenix Within said
I understand and agree…
patleybaskounpad said
i don’t know why the UID issue has been raised but it would be possible to have a livelier and more meaningful debate on the issue…
SHOULD INDIA LIKE SOME LIBERAL DEMOCRACIES IN THE WEST ALLOW REFERENDUMS TO SETTLE CONTENTIOUS ISSUES …
to begin with, some of the pros would be that …parliamentary democracy at best is an indirect democracy that doesn’t really put decision making in the hands of the people..why not allow the stakeholders themselves decide what they want to do…
some the cons; given the way mass opinion is subtly and at times not so subtly manipulated by politicians and regional chauvinists the whole exercise seems fraught with dangers…of course then there is the issue of Kashmir..though the Shimla agreement seems to hint towards that solution, the ramifications being what they would be, this solution would really be untenable…
why not postulate:
EXCEPT IN THOSE CASES THAT UNDERMINE THE SOVEREIGNTY AND TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF THE COUNTRY, REFERENDUM WOULD BE A LEGITIMATE WAY OF RECOGNIZING THE WISHES OF THE PEOPLE…
…would anyone want to jump in into this discussion…
xyz without blinkers would also be welcome …
layman said
78,
i think you are falling into the trap…it would be good if you could answer the issues raised in #73..
———————————————————
You are right patley, but he doesnt seem to be coming online to “discuss”.
He is too abusive !!!
xyz said
PBKU
You don’t need referendum. “People” are quite vocal about what they wish thru their actions and which the Govt along with leftist media is trying to muffle.
One Todi case becomes national news, but several murders committed by muslims against Hindus for eloping with muslim girls never comes to light.
If you hold an honest and open debate in front of national media, chances are it will open too many cans of worms which have accumulated over the years due to treachery and mismanagement of our corrupt “netas”. This may lead to riots and other movements which the Govt will find difficult to control.
So like our commie bros, our Govt intends to keep our masses ignorant and believes in the philosophy of “let sleeping dogs lie” and “keep sweeping the garbage under the carpet”. Downside of such belief is when the dog wakes up or garbage starts rotting , it will be too difficult to manage the situation.
Phoenix Within said
@86.”SHOULD INDIA LIKE SOME LIBERAL DEMOCRACIES IN THE WEST ALLOW REFERENDUMS TO SETTLE CONTENTIOUS ISSUES …”
Can you please give some examples of the ‘issues’ settled by some democracies with the help of referendums ?
layman said
86
In our country: the problem with referendum, like any other election procedures would be people taking sides based on caste, culture and language and not on the issue which are binding; it would again be back to square one!
This is however a very good suggestion. Most of the developed countries (except Iraq of course !!) have this system is an indication in itself of its credibility!
Besides, my idea of the better India would be to strengthen the federal scaffold of the country, akin to what our PM recently hinted in a public rhetoric: country can’t be ruled from Delhi alone!
patleybaskounpad said
i think in this age of 24X7 news where illiterate TV reporting mold public opinion and prop up vigilante journalism, the word referendum may be looked at in the pejorative but look at this way….
when it comes to voting people hardly vote because democracy is just a concept….and the ballot is cast for an abstraction, which is a human being…
i am not so sure if i am making myself clear…but what i am trying to get at is that when people vote they do so as a leap of faith in favor of a party or a politician and hardly an issue…
referendum brings the issue much closer to the hearts of the people..they would vote because they would be casting their ballot for an issue that would really impact their lives….
as for the example of issues settled by refs…issues need a lifetime to be settled..but the cue could perhaps be the relatively recent spate of referendums in Europe that sought to settle the issue of whether a particular nation state in that continent wanted to be part of a particular EU dispensation or not…
but i would urge you not to get down with the specifics of this issue but see it in a ‘macro’ light, at the conceptual level…
patleybaskounpad said
sorry the ‘connective tissue’ of the argument in #91 is being a bit strained by the moronic repetition of the word ‘issue’..
i apologize for this untidiness…
Phoenix Within said
Ok. Agreeing that at a hypothetical level the Gorkhaland issue can be settled. So what will be the subject of the referendum ?
1. Identity issue of Gorkhas
2. Citizenship issue of Nepalese in India
3. Formation of Gorkhaland in Darjeeling only.
And then again, if a referendum had to be taken on the first two issues, who will vote ?
In the third case, well, before the citizenship issue is resolved does the question of having a referendum arise at all ?
xyz said
PBKU
India is not a mature democracy. Here caste and community play a larger role than promises of electricity, education, strong economy etc.
Referendum IMHO is more suitable for mature democracies were people have good knowledge about the subject.
Watch these vids though they have been made for western viewers, we can see similarities in our situation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isUSnmOGg08
xyz said
How to Destroy Nations with Love and Tolerance
layman said
It is not going to be like people in Darjeeling and Sikkim voting for Prashant Tamang like crazy and rest of the Bengal just letting it happen !!!!
Who wins? Of course majority!!!
What happens to the issue? Same thing that has been doing rounds over a century!
patleybaskounpad said
i thought the caveat was to not get into specifics…my query was does anyone think referendums are the right way of making democracy relevant an accessible in the indian polity….
as far as GL is concerned imagine this hypothetical scenario, that is, a referendum is held on why there should be no GL…what would your 1,2, and 3 on that would be…
xyz’s contention would be thrown out of the window because the fact that we are having this exercise would be mean that there is constitutional legitimacy to that demand besides there being an implicit recognition of the stakeholders as being legitimate players in the process….
of course GJMM with its village level politics and its preoccupation with other energy sapping non-issues is hardly in a position to fight for this pertinent and nation changing issue..
patleybaskounpad said
#95
the idea of a referendum is to tweak democracy so that the stake holders have a bigger say in the outcome..and this could be achieved, say by preempting the possibility of those having no real involvement in the process, from actually taking part in the exercise..
xyz said
PBKU
Referendum will apply to people who are citizens of this country. If we are talking about GL and Nepalis in India, as per the criteria laid down in the 1950 treaty, it is very difficult for these people to qualify as Indian citizens.
Just by holding a referendum you mean to say that it will grant constitutional validity to GL and automatic legitimacy to all the stakeholders? Come on PBKU how can a man of your caliber make such simplistic assumption?
Phoenix Within said
But all his ‘abusive language’ norwitstanding, can xyz really be ‘thrown out of the window’ in this context?
If we phrase the issue as ‘Why no Gorkhaland’ to be decided by rest of India – do the hills have any chance at all ? I agree with Layman on this.
patleybaskounpad said
#98
i think my assumptions are validated by my faith in the indian union..if the indian union and all its processes recognize a group of people as being deemed ‘worthy’ of exercising the privilege of voting in the hypothetical referendum or the very real universal adult franchise, who am i to subvert that process and bracket myself ‘an anti-national’ by taking a contrary stand???
xyz said
We already have a treaty which very clearly defines who are citizens and who are legal residents.
So whatever referendum, agreement n discussions the govt undertakes it has to be within the parameters of this treaty. No referendum or discussion can overlook any of the parameters laid down in the treaty. If this happens it is illegal and unconstitutional and the parties involved are liable for prosecution.
xyz said
PBKU to be deemed worthy for voting 1st he has to be a citizen of this country as laid down in our constitution and additionally in case of Nepalis living in India, he has to qualify as per the criteria laid down in Indo Nepal Treaty.
There is no room for emotions. This also applies to Bangladeshis living in India.
patleybaskounpad said
#99
i think it’s a myth when people believe that folks in the ‘rest’ (and not just north) bengal are going to go hammer and tongs against GL or what is the same thing the division of Bengal..
if you were to see the reality and not just what is fed to you through the artificial perspective of bleeding hearts such as xyz…GL, in the rest of Bengal is a non issue..people have much more pressing concern to be worried about…GL is just an abstraction that has no relevance in the lives of an average WB denizen…if people miss the beauty of darjeeling and whine about its loss, they should be taught that just as they can enjoy picturesque sikkim (an other state) they could have the same privilege about enjoying GL too..
patleybaskounpad said
#102..
xyz this may come as a pleasant revelation to you but, the MLA of Kalimpong many years ago was a lady called Renu Leena Subba ( a bahun lady from Nepal, who was married to a local subba)..now how she got to be the MLA is hardly relevant, what is important in the context of your claim here is that, she was voted to power by people whom the Indian polity recognized to be eligible, legitimate and bonafide voters…
you cannot seek to subvert a system in the curious grounds of patriotism…that would seem highly contradictory and funny..
Phoenix Within said
@100
“if the indian union and all its processes recognize a group of people as being deemed ‘worthy’ of exercising the privilege of voting in the hypothetical referendum or the very real universal adult franchise, who am I to subvert that process”
So first a referendum has to be taken by the citizens of India to decide whether the ‘group of people’ are ‘worthy’, and only if they vote favourably ( which is highly unlikely)…. can ‘Gorkhaland’ be granted in this manner….
xyz said
I agree PBKU 99.9% of the Bengalis are simply too ambivalent about GL bcoz they don’t know the truth about GL. They have been either kept in the dark or fed a steady stream of lies by media and govt, something similar to Bangladeshi menace in West Bengal.All covered under a cloak of “secularism”.
GL is nothing but another name for Nepalis encroaching in West Bengal or threatening the territorial integrity of the country. If we speak in this lingo to bengali masses the ambivalence will evaporate pretty soon and we will witness what Bengal and Bengalis are famous for.
Btw, there is hard commercial and economic perspective to DJ. DJ tea is global brand like Basmati and with situations like Peak Oil around the corner coupled with restriction on carbon emissions, which in turn restricts usage of thermal power plants, hydel power in DJ will provide cheap clean power to West Bengal’s industries.This will give WB a major comparative advantage over other states. So now PBKU tell me why WB govt will gift away DJ to Nepali citizens who are fleeing economic collapse in Nepal?
patleybaskounpad said
#105
i think you are again missing the wood for the trees..are you telling me that indian voters should vote whether to allow foreigners to vote or not???
not only are you being comical you are also being quite subversive by attempting to think along those lines, because given the effectiveness of some spin doctors and the impoverished nature of some voting population, even that far fetched idea could be a reality..
Phoenix Within said
@104.
PBKU, is this a question only about division of Bengal ? Is the rest of Bengal the only other stake holders in this issue ? What about ‘Gorkha identity’ ? What about the same problem cropping up in other parts of India ? In a country formed through unification of diversities, can this sort of exercise be ‘welcome’ at all ?
patleybaskounpad said
#106
i think you have made the almost axiomatic assumption that all legitimate voting citizens of Darjeeling are foreigners..and since the rest of you argument flows from that fallacy they are hardly worth commenting upon …of course in a fascist dictatorship your kind of unscientific propaganda would have succeeded… but not in a democracy where truth either real or implied wants to be free …or else ask your own 99.9%.. after all you cannot be the lone guardian of WB who is privy to that otherwise elusive truth about the contagion of the hypothetical ‘foreigner’ Gorkhas..
xyz said
PBKU Nein,Nein,Nein it’s not me but Govt of West Bengal’s statements about DJ right from 1950 and census figures from 1945 till today which has led me to my claims.
PBKU now talking like JTM.LOL!
patleybaskounpad said
just as the perceived opposition of the rest of bengal to the creation of GL is a myth, this story about gorkha identity is also a myth…
i mean, are the nepalese in sikkim not gorkhas (ganju lama VC, the favorite son of ravangla, was a sikkimese)? do they have any identity crisis??
i refuse to believe that GL is a pill for the disease of confused identity..
the identity is not confused, the real problem is the economics..and since everyone looks for their own El Dorado, so it is for the people of the hills…till the new installment of disillusionment that is..
after all when the GJMM replaced GNLF there was the fresh spring of optimism and hope…soon to be replaced by cruel cynicism..this process repeats itself ad infinitum…everywhere….so just as it was with the CPM so will it be with Mamata
patleybaskounpad said
#110
so why did the ‘govt of WB’ keep on having elections??..why didn’t they throw the book at those alleged outsiders???? why did they instead negotiate with them, even had deals with them???
xyz said
Now you are talking sense. Why not focus on economic prosperity for all the people living in NB?
I feel due to incidents in Bhutan and NE, Nepalis in Eastern part of India are feeling insecure plus majority of them are economic refugees from Nepal.
GL movement will only make their situation more precarious than it is currently. If that moron BG starts armed struggle after Dec talks, it will prove to be the final nail in the coffin. Public sentiments have changed a lot since 1980s. Nepal is no longer a close buddy but proving to be siding with China and Pakistan.
Phoenix Within said
@111
You mean the people are being taken for a ride ? Is there ‘cruel cynicism’ now ?
xyz said
PBKU you can ask the same question about the situation in Kashmir and NE. If we resort to measures adopted by the Chinese to quell internal rebellion, all our headaches would have long been over.
India is a democracy and Indira Gandhi tried something similar in 70’s and we all know what was the outcome and Bengal traditionally being a leftist state have to keep up the image of being “people” oriented or worker friendly i.e. abetting misrule, indiscipline, corruption etc.All these vices we are witnessing in DJ in a much more magnified form. But the same can’t be said about states like maharashtra, Gujarat, Southern states etc.Try raising a similar demand over there and see the reaction?
xyz said
PW Where do you get your news from? Either TV, newspaper or internet? How much difference do you find between different news channels? if you check the news articles in internet even the wording is same in different sites relating to a particular event. Usually they are PTI press releases which are cut and paste everywhere.
layman said
Try raising a similar demand over there and see the reaction?
————————————————————
1. Darjeeling is not in Gujarat
2. If Darjeeling was in Gujarat you would not have been commenting here under a pseudo name xyz, which sounds like a pejorative WHATEVER..
MMM said
@Layman
Darjeeling is Not Gujarat… but GJM Leadership definitely worse than Raj Thakre.
Tarantula said
@112. A referendum in the ‘Gorkhaland’ issue is not possible or feasible at all for reasons too sensitive to discuss on a blog…
@38. The central govt. is also in no hurry to issue UIDs in ‘Gorkhaland’…….
JTM said
TOI 14 November 2009 New DElhi edn. Duniya ke Neta by Jug Suraiya and Neelabh Bannerjee. CARTOON showing two Bengali babus discussing over a cup of tea.
“Kolkata was once the intellectual capital of India”
“But after years of Marxist rule it has become intellectually bankrupt. Why?”
“Because Marxists don’t like any form of capitalism….including intellectual capitalism….”
Phoenix Within said
That was good JTM. Good to see you are back.
How are you ?
MNOPQ said
xyz–why raise the demand in gujarat and maharashtra? the comparison makes no sense at all. GL is a geo-specific demand, it cannot be demanded anywhere, be it gujarat or rajasthan or MP or anywhere else. Can you ask for a bengal in bihar? The govt. definitely has the option of using power to quell the movement. But it is not doing so because they are very well aware of the consequences. I bet they have more intelligence data than you have about the situation. Look at what is happening in other areas in your state where when only a handful of people are behind the movement? Using force will only create another balkan in the area. The consequences will be unimaginalble. If you are thinking you will escape from that, you are too naive to discuss these issues. Your govt, tried to play the adivasis against the gorkhas, but it all backfired and they have emerged as a powerful mass and political force. It is only a question of time before they question the authority of WB govt and join the gorkhas and kamtapuris to demand equal power as anyone else.
MMM – we can understand your frustration with GJM leadership, because they have been doing an excellent job. for you, the best leader would be subhash gihising, who would take money from your govt and shut up. But rest assured, the people of GL will not let that happen, you must realize that this is 80s.
Tarantula- a referendum on GL is possible and feasible but is not necessary right now, the last Lok Sabha election was equivalent to referendum and everyone knows that, including you.
zyx said
I agree PBKU 99.9% of the Bengalis are simply too ambivalent about GL bcoz they don’t know the truth about GL. They have been either kept in the dark or fed a steady stream of lies by media and govt, something similar to Bangladeshi menace in West Bengal.All covered under a cloak of “secularism”.
+++
Thought XYZ would have the truth with him but …
+++
GL is nothing but another name for Nepalis encroaching in West Bengal or threatening the territorial integrity of the country. If we speak in this lingo to bengali masses the ambivalence will evaporate pretty soon and we will witness what Bengal and Bengalis are famous for.
+++
Only someone like BG can reason with this man.
JTM said
My dear PW
I am recovering now. THank you ver much for enquiring after me. It was very nice to know that all of you’ll care so much for me.
MMM said
@JTM
Good to see you back… hope you get fully well soon.
xyz said
MNOPQ
Can you ask for a bengal in bihar?
—————————————-
Your demand is even more ridiculous than the above. Can you demand Nepal in Bengal/India?
Adivasis status is like that of Gorkhas i.e. migrant labourers from a neighboring state. They have become bold after seeing no action by local administration against migrant laborers from Nepal. This is similar to bad management in any industry where restrictive practises are freely allowed. The management tries to appease the workers with all kinds of concessions,which in turn makes them bold and they start raising ridiculous demands which ultimately results in strike and lock outs and ultimately the company being declared sick. This is what has happened and happening in West Bengal which is being run by a party of Union leaders.
Make no mistake, if Amra Bangali comes to power in WB, situation in DJ will not be like Yugoslavia but like that of Bhutan. Majority of you are citizens of Nepal who are desperate to carve out permanent place for yourself in India due to economic collapse in Nepal and excellent opportunity provided by gross mismanagement of WB.
layman said
Make no mistake, if Amra Bangali comes to power in WB, situation in DJ will not be like Yugoslavia but like that of Bhutan. Majority of you are citizens of Nepal who are desperate to carve out permanent place for yourself in India due to economic collapse in Nepal and excellent opportunity provided by gross mismanagement of WB.
It is difficult to conjecture what will happen to Darjeeling where your AB has no influence or control over, but giving benefit of doubt if your amra bangali (who btw had a difficult encounter with women of nari morcha last year, I saw it in a grainy you tube footage…) comes to power in a very unlikely situation, the very fact will itself be an unprecedented justification for separate state movements and uprisings in Bengal that are in nascent stage at present. Greater Cooch Bihar, Adhivasis, Kamtapur, Jangalkhand to name a few…and yeah you forgot about inundating Biharis and Marwaris in siliguri, who have no time to sing chorus of ravindra sangeet with your AAMRA BANGALI cadres whatsoever!
And about your assumption that all citizens of Darjeeling are citizens of Nepal…
Are you trying to say that Darjeeling is not in India? Check the map, your statement is anti-national. But of course you don’t care about nationality, because your anger is driven by racism rather than patriotism (as the name suggests AAMRA BANGALI) and moreover I imagine you have sneaked into India after being kicked on your arse by angry Mushlims in BD, right?
Did you make ration card btw or in a fit of dreaming about green card, you forgot?
Make sure you have one, before question others!!!!
layman said
XYZ
sorry about the typographic mistake ( I’m not a native english speaker..errors do creep in, but I am correcting here for your convenience):
Make no mistake, if Amra Bangali comes to power in WB, situation in DJ will not be like Yugoslavia but like that of Bhutan. Majority of you are citizens of Nepal who are desperate to carve out permanent place for yourself in India due to economic collapse in Nepal and excellent opportunity provided by gross mismanagement of WB.
—————————————
It is difficult to conjecture what will happen to Darjeeling where your AB has no influence or control over, but giving a benefit of doubt if your amra bangali (who btw had a difficult encounter with women of nari morcha last year, I saw it in a grainy you tube footage…) comes to power in a very unlikely situation, the very fact will itself be an unprecedented justification for separate state movements and uprisings in Bengal that are in nascent stages at present. Greater Cooch Bihar, Adhivasis, Kamtapur, Jangalkhand to name a few…and yeah you forgot about inundating Biharis and Marwaris in siliguri, who have no time to sing chorus of ravindra sangeet with your AAMRA BANGALI cadres whatsoever!
And about your assumption that all citizens of Darjeeling are citizens of Nepal…
Are you trying to say that Darjeeling is not in India? Check the map, your statement is anti-national. But of course you don’t care about nationality, because your anger is driven by racism rather than patriotism (as the name suggests AAMRA BANGALI) and moreover I imagine you have sneaked into India after being kicked on your arse by angry Mushlims in BD, right?
Did you make a ration card btw or in a fit of dreaming about green card, you forgot?
Make sure you have one, before question others!!!!
regs,
“Foreigner” Gorkha
Vishal said
Hi JTM
Grt to see you back.
Regs
Vishal
xyz said
#128 and 129
Layman
Expect PBKU, Maakoora, JTM and few others none of us are posting comments in perfect English. Your English is above par so pls don’t bother about small errors.
The conditions you have mentioned are the perfect breeding ground for right wing parties. Situations like you have mentioned help right wing fringe parties to gain strength and come in power. Maharashtra (anti migrants), Gujarat(anti muslims) perfect example.
You being a right wing activist for parties like GJMM, I will suggest you read the history of NSDAP aka Nazi Party.
And you are driven by patriotism? Maybe patriotism towards Nepal and help Nepal to become greater Nepal by illegally occupying DJ. I guess you know that DJ is part of India and West Bengal, not Nepal?
You Nepalis are the most racist people which can be inferred from the racist anti Indian comments posted by Nepalis. What is GJMM? Isn’t it a racist party which can’t integrate with Indians and therefore seeks to carve out an illegal homeland for people who are basically citizens of Nepal?
Check your own past comments to know who is the racist in this blog. Hardly any Bengali supports Amra Bangali inspite of severe provocation from outsiders whereas almost whole bunch of Nepalis in Bengal are part of some right wing “gorkha” party although local Bengalis hardly harbor any ill feeling towards Nepalis.
With the current spate of anti Nepali attacks I guess Adivasis, Rajbongshis, Marwaris, Biharis etc. also have an axe to grind against you guys.
xyz said
Typo 1st line 1st word “except” not “expect”
layman said
In the aftermath of Bangladesh formation, the groups like TNV, NLFT and other Tripura Tigers representing native Tripura tribes went to a war path with your ancestors who flooded and dominated tripura demographically. But by now, you have outnumbered the native tribes and the conflict has just diminished to what I would quote as “sporadic outburst of violence at the slightest provocation limited to non-political level, yet serious”.
Your political aspiration in north Bengal has similar basis. Unfortunately, it is too late for neither GOI nor gorkhas to check the influx as you have already “settled” and thanks to your structural, linguistic and cultural parity with indigenous Bengalese you have pretend to have become a plural AAMRA BANGALI.
Unfortunately true Bengalese are still happy with humble ami bangali in singular sense of word and that might be the challenge no. 1 before you take on others, who you have no clue about in any respect-singularity, plurality, let alone insanity!
Now, it seems you are aspiring to become a major political force in Bengal and you have a perfect background to build your foundation on as GJM has raised a demand that can help you produce more AAMRAs by spreading but hatred. And it is ironic that now you have completely turned your back on communists masters who gave you a decent shelter in India. I have a hunch that it’s because of the idea of Progressive utilization theory (PROT), which is at the heart of each AAMRA BANGALI that conflicts with communism (also capitalism though) at large.
But everything boils down to this: you achieve nothing in diverse country like INDIA at least in the long run!!!!
My suggestion is-come out of self imagined propaganda and have your say (positive or negative) on Gorkhaland, without premeditation, like a bonafide citizen of India (act like one if you aren’t). Good for you.
AAMRA HINDUSTHANI! Na ki?
layman said
You being a right wing activist for parties like GJMM, I will suggest you read the history of NSDAP aka Nazi Party.
———————————————————————————————-
Are you a Bhejan Daruwala?
how did you see GJMMism in me?
Agatha said
@Layman
Make no mistake Bengalis are not so narrow as to vote parties like ‘Aamra Bangali’ to power… apart from the small support base they have garnered in Siliguri area among population threatened by almost equally fascist GJMM, I doubt anyone in the rest of West Bengal will ever take them seriously. And a main reason is that Bengal has long ceased to be a state only for bengalis….. I think there are more biharis, marwaris or punjabis in Bengal than nepalis. The unique feature of the nepali population is that they are mainly concentrated in the Darjeeling area while the other communities are scattered all over West Bengal…
RAJA said
135.
very much true….
Maakoora said
Wow ! coming back to this thread 23 hours and approx 100 postings later, look it has now reached the Top of the Posts !!
Thanks to Brigs and Romit for bringing in focus the tip of the iceberg; giving rise to views and insights from and about Gorkhas aplenty.
Whose contention is trudging on thin ice, only time will tell.
XXX said
Xyz.
Your language speaks arrogance n stupidity.First go to the basics of English idioms,metaphors,similes,foot,metre,alliteration, rhyme and try to point ur racist dirty finger at others.A person who doesn t knw the meaning of ‘rubbing’shoulders’ is here doing the job of a philosopher !
Darjeeling tera baap ka hai kya ?This brat is a product of Bangladesh otherwise he wouldn t be so misimformed n ignorant abt the historical annals of OUR land.
XXX said
Xyz.
Your language speaks arrogance n stupidity.First go to the basics of English idioms,metaphors,similes,foot,metre,alliteration, rhyme and try to point ur racist dirty finger at others.A person who doesn t knw the meaning of ‘rubbing’shoulders’ is here doing the job of a philosopher !
Darjeeling tera baap ka hai kya ?This brat is a product of Bangladesh otherwise he wouldn t be so misimformed n ignorant abt the historical annals of OUR land.
I ve a simple lesson for you,’ First find out hw much filth is there in ur dead cells bfore bragging abt urself’.
xyz said
Layman
What did you guys do to the local indigenous population of Sikkim? Why were you kicked out of Bhutan? Why are you being chased out of entire NE? Why are they killing you ppl in Assam?
Did you miss something when you mentioned “North Bengal”? North Bengal is part of Bengal and India not Nepal. My political aspirations in NB is legit as I am a Bengali whereas your’s political aspiration is illegitimate as you are not even Indian let alone a Bengali. First prove that you are Indian. All your actions proves that you are agents of Chinese.
Ha, Ha sure you want Bengalis to be humble and simple “Ami Bengali” types so that like the British your ex masters you will rule over humble and simple Bengalis in the form of Gorkhaland. You think we are that stupid?
I was never a supporter of Amra Bangali. But after watching the antics of racist foreign Gorkhas, I have started feeling that we need a Bengali clone of GJMM. You use iron to cut iron.
Who has started this game of spreading hatred? Nepalis or Bengalis? Read the comments of ppl living in DJ who have expressed surprise at the amount of hatred Nepalis in DJ hv for non- Nepalis. Quite surprising ppl who are living here on charity are spitting at the same ppl who are allowing them to live on their land.
Bengal belongs to Bengalis. So who has given Bengalis shelter in Bengal? China backed communists like in Nepal?
If Amra Bangali comes in power then you have to blame yourself bcoz your GJMM made this party powerful. Isn’t it strange?
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But everything boils down to this: you achieve nothing in diverse country like INDIA at least in the long run!!!!
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Why don’t you practice what you preach?
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My suggestion is-come out of self imagined propaganda and have your say (positive or negative) on Gorkhaland, without premeditation, like a bonafide citizen of India (act like one if you aren’t). Good for you.
========================================================================================
There is no doubt about Bengalis being bona fide citizens of India (only a stupid Nepali foreigner will doubt status of Bengalis in India), can the same be said about Nepalis living in India? LOL
AAMRA HINDUSTHANI! Na ki?
============================
AAMRA HINDUSTANI (does it applies to only Indians or even Nepalis living in India? If you think you are Hindustani then pls stop chanting Gorkhaland, Gorkhaland as Gorkhaland is associated with Nepal not Hindustan.)
If you say Aamra Hindustani then pls learn to integrate yourself with local people. You have to work twice harder than other Indians as you and your ancestors are not from India. Racist GJMM and GL is certainly not helping you in becoming a proponent of AAMRA HINDUSTANI.
layman said
XYZ,
Your whole assertion on the issue is based on a pathetic assumption that we are all foreigners from NEPAL, the very point which gives impetus to fight for GORKHALAND MOVEMENT in INDIA.
On one hand you claim Darjeeling as a part of North Bengal, India and on the other you tell people living there since time immemorial, even before India was actually formed to go back to NEPAL just because we share a similar ethnicity.
Land is mine but people aren’t, huh? Use your heads I win tails you loose philosophy somewhere else dude. When you steal a chicken the bones are bound to come along unless of course it is boneless, which is not in our case. This is but an apotheosis of chauvinism on your part to say the least.
Why don’t you give back the whole land to Sikkim, Bhutan and Nepal so we wouldn’t have to answer your moronic question embellished with “foreigner” propaganda, anyway Lepchas, Bhutias and Nepalis do not have any problem with each other?
You talk about our brethren being chased out of NEs? Do you have any knowledge what that symbolically means? It means they don’t consider their territory to be a part of sovereign India. Kashmir, NE, Punjab everywhere people want break away from this nation. Aren’t you grateful that Gorkha is the only community, despite having similar problems, are fighting to be as Indians as you morons? I feel ashamed!
I feel sorry for GJMM and its henchmen that they are begging for an Identity instead of the separate country when you morons did not fit in any scheme of things in the past history nor want to be considerate about it!
layman said
Go join aamra bangali and defame the term bangali by holding a publicshowdown with women of NARI MORCHA !
xyz said
Layman
Pls don’t twist facts.
The fact is some of you were brought here by the British and the vast majority arrived here after 1950 Indo Nepal treaty. Which makes you legal residents but citizens of Nepal.
If Nepalis were already living in DJ prior to arrival of the British, how come Nepalis of DJ were not considered citizens of India as late as 1947? Do you have any explanation for this?
In 1950 Nepalis were just 20% of the population and today it’s just the reverse. How can citizens of Nepal ask for separate state in DJ? You already have Sikkim where 90% of the population is Nepali so why link identity of Nepalis with statehood when you already have one in the first place? How many states do you want in India? Already you took the help of the British and India to illegally occupy Sikkim now you want to gobble DJ?
Ha, Ha, ha ass**** get this inside you thick Nepali skull? The British your masters who brought you here have been booted out more than 60 yrs back. Today DJ is part of Bengal not that of Nepal or Bhutan. Either accept this fact or get out from Bengal if you can’t get alongwith us. You are neither Indians nor Bengalis but Nepalis. Your BS wont be tolerated for too long as you are not one of us and Nepal is turning out to be as treacherous as you Nepalis living in India. You guys have serious learning disabilities. Inspite of being kicked out of several places due to similar attitude problems you guys have not learn’t your lessons.
Did they say anything about their land not being part of sovereign India or were they trying to protect their land from illegal settlers who are marginalizing and overwhelming the locals ?
=========================================================================================
Kashmir, NE, Punjab everywhere people want break away from this nation. Aren’t you grateful that Gorkha is the only community, despite having similar problems, are fighting to be as Indians as you morons? I feel ashamed!
=========================================================================================
LOL! All these places you have mentioned are demands by sons of the soil. Are you sons of the soil or citizens of a foreign country trying to take advantage of a lop sided treaty and weak local government?How have you bracketed yourself with people who are sons of the soil?
Who is stopping you from being “Indian”? When no one is stopping you from being an Indian what are you fighting against?
You should feel ashamed trying to steal in broad daylight from ppl who have graciously allowed you to live in their land.
xyz said
#142 I have seen vids of nepalis being bashed can you post this vid of Nari Morcha Vs. Amra Bangali?
xxx said
who is this xxx
layman said
143,
Dude before giving me a spiteful lesson in history of my own land, read this article written by a BHUTIA gentleman.
(1) THE THREE COMMUNITIES: BHUTIAS, GORKHAS & LEPCHAS
The history of Darjeeling has intimate relationship, nang ra masukojasto, to the history of Sikkim, Nepal, Bhutan, and the East India Company and thereby to Britain. It will be appropriate to start from Kharsang for it was here that Maharajah Thodup Namgyal and Maharani Yeshay Dolma were imprisoned. jailed, locked up by the British and it was here that they wrote a historical book on Sikkim. It was translated into English by Kazi Daosamdup and he called it History of Sikkim. I have a copy of this rare document and therefore I will be extensively, freely and purposely quoting from it. In the manuscript the boundaries of Sikkim is defined as follows: “They were Dibdala in the North, Shingsa Dag-pay, Walung, Yangmak, Khangchen, Yarlung and Timar Chorten in the West, down along Arun and Dud Kosi Rivers, down to Maha Nodi, Nuxalbari, Titalia in the South. On the East Tagong La, and Tang La on the North.” These boundaries were defined after the enthronement, coronation, the appointment of the first Chogyal of Sikkim, Phuntshog Namgyal, 1642 CE. The first things the new ruler did was to construct forts called dzongs which operated as the military and administrative units. To these dzongs he appointed dzongpens, or fort masters, the local administrators or chiefs and they were all Lepchas, thus the Lepchas were appeased, made happy, made content. But that left out the Limbus and the Magars. The Magars staunchly resisted Bhutia incursion and political domination, and they actually went to war against the new rulers. The fact that the Magars were pretty well organized can be assessed from the forts they built which the ruling community in Sikkim called them Magar-dzongs. Eventually, the Magars lost and a large part of them got pushed westwards. As far as the Limbus were concerned the Chogyal made a pact called Lho-mon-tsong-sum (lho-Bhutias, mon-Lepchas, tsong-Limbus, and sum-three), thus giving us the Bhutia-Lepcha-Limbu trinity.
Now what importance this patch of history has for us vis-à-vis the present political scenario! (1) The boundaries demarcated clearly shows that Darjeeling, Kharsang, Kalimpong and Siliguri were all in Sikkim and that the kingdom stretched all the way to Purnea in the south. (2) The Gorkha population was in sufficient numbers to wage a war against Sikkim, as in the case of Magars, and large enough for the Chogyal to seek allegiance (Lho-mon-tsong-sum), as in the case of the Limbus. And (3) This is the most significant of the points mentioned so far: that the Maharajah’s History of Sikkim makes it absolutely certain that the Gorkhas were in the region even before the creation of Sikkim yaneki Sikkimko shristi, janma, sthapana bhanda dherai aghi dekhi nai hamro paharma Gorkhaharu thiyay.
(2) SIKKIM LOSES KALIMPONG
Tensung Namgyal became the next Chogyal. (1670) Most historians, looking for wars, coups, assassinations, and political intrigues insult and degrade his reign claiming nothing important or interesting happened. Actually something very important had happened. He married three times. History of Sikkim states that his first wife, Nambi Ongmu, was from Bhutan, and she gave birth to a daughter, Pande Ongmu. The second was from Tibet and she gave birth to a son, Chagdor Namgyal. The third Rani was the daughter of a Limbu chief named Yong-Yong Hang. The royal History also says that along with the daughter of Yong-Yong Hang seven other Limbu ladies got married to “highest kazis and ministers of Sikkim.” When Tensung Namgyal died the daughter of the Bhutanese Rani staked her claim to the Sikkim gaddhi, after all, the male contender, Chagdor Namgyal, was a minor and she was an adult besides she was also the child of the first queen. The princess sought the help of the Bhutanese who willingly obliged. Pande Ongmuko gaddhiko loblay garda Bhutanlay auta sunowlo mouka paayay. Ani Dukpaharu Sikkim pasay. Balak raja ra mantriharu jyan bachuna Bhot tira suikucha thokay. In 1707 the Bhutanese withdrew but retained all Sikkimese territories to the east of the Tista River whereby our present day Kalimpong became a part of Bhutan.
Now let us go back to this portion of the history. (1) Tensung Namgyal by marrying daughters of important people indirectly purchased peace for Sikkim, after all uttarpatti haray ta Bhotko juwai sahib, paschim tira haray ta Limbu haruko juwai, ani Purba haray ta Bhutan ko juwai. Sikkimlai kaslay chai akraman garnay. So, kinachai Sikkimma shanty na hunu ra. Taraipani it is ironic that historians still ignore and even refuse to give him credit for winning …. peace. (2) It is said the too many cooks spoil the broth and Maharaha Tensung had two wives too many and Sikkim paid for it dearly. (3) It is most probable that Limbus were not too happy with the prevailing sutuation, despite the lho-mon-tsong-sum pact. Therefore besides making a Limbuni a Rani of Sikkim seven other ladies were also taken as wives by highest kazis and ministers of Sikkim. And finally, (4) Most people think that Kalimpong originally belonged to Bhutan but we now know that it was originally a part of Sikkim. Chotkarima, Kalaybung Sikkim bata Bhutanlay gavayko ani Bhutan bata Angrejlay pach pareko ho.
layman said
(3) ANGLO-NEPAL WAR
Now we move on to the 6th Chogyal, Tenzing Namgyal who ascended the Sikkimese throne in 1780. His reign was punctuated, interrupted and disturbed with skirmishes and battles with the Gorkhas. Then there was a period of lull and quiet and the Gorkhas used this period of calm and peace to launch a surprise attack. Sikkimese were completely taken aback by the sudden shock raids. Purna Ale led a group of Gorkhas who came through Ilam and penetrated as far as Reling, Karmi, and Chakung (1788). Another Gorkha force under the command of Johar Singh stealthily advanced through the Singalila and in a complete surprise swoop took over the palace at Rabdentse: Yaspali pani Raja, praja ani mantriharulay taap kasay, tara Bhot tira hoina, kholsa, orar, gufa, khola-nadiko bagar ani junglema sharan lina pugay. History of Sikkim mentions, “Thus the Gurkhas remained masters of Sikkim, beyond the Teesta, while the Raja took flight and all Sikkimites were compelled to take refuge in the valleys of the rivers, hills and caves, suffering privations and hardship.” In 1790 Chogyal left his hiding and went to Tibet where he died three years later, and a boy of 12 years, Tsugphud Namgyal, was proclaimed the new Maharaja. It was during Tsugphud’s kingship that the Anglo-Nepal war broke out. The British eventually challenged the Gorkhas through a five pronged attack and Sikkim sided with the British.
We must pause here to reflect on a few points. (1) Prithwinarayan Shah never wanted to attack Sikkim for the fear it might open up a fresh frontier of war with Tibet. However, the 1788 Gorkha move to penetrate deep into Sikkim signifies that the Gorkhas had grown confident enough to handle Sikkim and withstand a Tibetan attack. (2) The Gorkhas did not bother the Sikkimese hiding in the ravines, jungles and caves as long as the strategic posts like Rabdentse, Dorje-ling and Na-gri were secure. (3) Alliance with the British was the only hope for the Sikkim ruler to regain his lost territories and so he sided with the British. At the same time the British accepted Sikkim’s gesture because (a) in the five-pronged British attack the eastern front was the weakest and Sikkim’s assistance would offset that disadvantage to some extent. (b) With Sikkim as an ally any future alliance/intrigues between Nepal and Bhutan could be checked. And (c) It promised a possibility of trade with Tibet through Sikkim. After all East India Company was a trading company, the biggest ever in history.
(4) DISCOVERY OF DARJEELING
After the war the British restored to the Sikkim Maharaja the lands between Mechi and Tista Rivers through the treaty of Titalya. This treaty has nine functional Articles and the tenth one is just a protocol fulfillment. The first and the last operative or functional articles talk about restoring to Sikkim in full sovereignty and of the Company’s guarantee to the Raja and his successors the full and peaceable possession of the tract. Each and every other Article in between took away from Sikkim, piece by piece, the basic entitlements of sovereignty, independence and freedom to function as an absolute nation . What became important to Darjeeling’s history was Article Three which required, stipulated and stated that Sikkim was “to refer to the arbitration of the British Government any dispute or questions that may arise between his (i.e. Chogyal’s) subjects and those of Nepal, or any other neighbouring State, and to abide by the decision of the British Government.” This Article Three became operational when the Chogyal asked the East India Company to arbitrate on the Ontoo Dara dispute because both Sikkim and Nepal claimed the dara as its own. So as per the stipulation of Article Three Captain George Alymer Lloyd and J. W. Grant, the Commercial resident at Malda, were deputed to investigate and resolve the matter. It was on the journey to Ontoo Dara that the two men, in February 1829, stayed at Darjeeling for six days at “the old Goorka station called Dorjeling” and were “much impressed with the possibility of the station as a sanatarium.” On 18 June 1829 Lloyd communicated to the government regarding the possibility of Darjeeling serving as a sanatarium while about the same time Grant also urged the government to possess the tract.
Now reflecting upon this chapter of history we note the following (1) The British kept their word and gave back to the Chogyal the lands between Mechi and Tista rivers. (2) This transfer of land was effected through the Treaty of Titalya in which the beginning and the end of the treaty were sugarcoated to make the Sikkimese happy. In between the British squeezed out much more than what they had given. Angrejlay gulchay khaylyo. And finally (3) A future Hill Station had been discovered by Lloyd and Grant and that hill station was called Dorje-ling and later as Darjeeling.
(5) DARJEELING BECOMES PART OF BRITISH INDIA
Lord William Bentinck, in June of 1830, proposed to commence negotiation with the Chogyal but this and another subsequent attempt were both struck down, stopped, by Sir C. Metcalfe, a Member of the Supreme Council, on the grounds that the neighbours might look at it with suspicion. Bentinck waited for almost four years and then ordered Major Lloyd to meet the Chogyal and negotiate the cession of Darjeeling “offering such equivalent either in land or money.” To cut short the story Lloyd conveyed the Governor-General’s message while the Chogyal placed three conditions viz (i) The Chogyal would quote a price and that should be paid, (ii) Sikkims border would be extended and (iii) Kummoo Pradhan, the tax collector who had fled to Nepal would be brought to Sikkim for execution of justice. What happened in between is rather vague but in a later meeting the Chogyal gave a short deed of grant. Since it did not define the boundaries of the land to be handed over, Lloyd produced his own deed on which the king stamped his lal mohar. The area defined in this deed became known as the Darjeeling tract and the British claimed it as their new asset. They were under the impression that the grant was unconditional but the Chogyal kept on complaining/ that he had not been compensated, in other words the grant was conditional. It might interest this august house to know that the original negotiation was to be only for the area of present-day Darjeeling town, i.e. the Observatory Hill and the surroundings, but in the stamped deed the area was, about 30 miles long from top to bottom and about six to ten miles along the sides. Now, when the sahibs began building roads and houses the Chogyal began to protest, and with the progress of development the protests grew stronger and louder. Eventually when the Company realized that the Chogyal had been wronged they sent a compensation consisting of:
One double-barrelled gun, a rifle, 20 yards of red broad cloth and two shawls.
Yeshlai bhancha asal helchyakrai: besharam Angrejlay andaaz 240 barga mile jaminko sattako laagi duiwata bundook, ek than luga ani duiwata shawl kun hisablay diyeko hola. Yo hamilay Gorkhaland mangda DGHC diyeko jastai ho, abha aeuta “Chhakka” Schedule pani dinchhu bhandaichha. The Chogyal’s pleadings for a just compensation now grew even louder. Eventually the Sikkim ruler threw a devastating bomb, in the form of a letter, to Campbell, who had now taken over from Lloyd as the First Superintendent of the Darjeeling tract. The letter still exists and it claimed in no uncertain words that his three conditions had been accepted by Lloyd. The following is a part of the letter: “Lloyd promised that whatever money I should desire in return should be granted, that my territory should be extended the west to the Tambar River; that Kummoo Pradhan and his brother be delivered to me; and that the deficit in my revenue in their hands should be made good.” The East India Company hurriedly offered a compensation of Rs 3,000 per annum which the ruler accepted with certain amount of displeasure. Nevertheless, the British now knew that the deed that they possessed, and the land they had acquired, were suspect, subject to questioning or of doubtful legality and that history would not treat it kindly. Another important fact that they realized was that the tract granted by the Maharaja was totally surrounded by Sikkimese territory and the approach road they were making was illegal because it went through Sikkim. The Chogyal could technically prohibit the British to make the road or even disallow them to pass through his Sikkim. Now with a suspect deed of grant and access to Darjeeling being only through Sikkimese soil the situation was not good at all. Something had to be done.
In examining the just mentioned episodes we find that (1) The deed of grant of Darjeeling could not become operative since the British had not met the conditions laid down by the Chogyal. Meet garnu saknay awastha panita thiyayna. Kummo Pradhan Nepalma guhar liyayra basako thiyo ani Angrez-Nepal majha kunai extradition treaty thiyayna. Chogyallay Sikkimko simana Tambar kholasamma baraidinay dawa rakheko thiyo tara tyo chhetra Sugauli Sandhima Nepallai deisakeko thiyo. Therefore these two conditions were impossible to meet and so the treaty was in effect invalid. (2) The best thing to do would have been to return Darjeeling tract to Sikkim. It was not done so because: three reasons (a) a lot of money had already been spent on the construction of the road, houses and staging posts, (b) a large number of Darjeeling plots had already been sold off, in Calcutta, and most of the buyers were men of money, matter and political muscle (c) the British desperately needed Darjeeling. Before Darjeeling was discovered the Himalayan region had Shimla, Chail and Mussoorie as hill stations serving the Europeans in North India, Central India had Mount Abu and Hazaribagh, South India had Mandapalle, Bangalore, Kotagiri, Ooty, and Kodaikanal, West India had Purandha and Mahabalshwar but Eastern India had no hill station. When Cherrapunji was taken over in 1829 the British thought they had that much sought after hill station but Cherra was the world’s rainiest place and all hopes got literally washed away. Shillong was a close option but the Khasis refused to surrender, they were giving the British a hard time. So, every officer in India could rush off to their own hill station be he from North, south, west or central India, but the capital of India, the second city of the British empire, had nowhere to go to. Imagine the frustration, imagine the embarrassment, and imagine the desperation and you can imagine why the British would not give back Darjeeling. Finally point number (3) The Chogyal had in good faith blindly put his seal on the document produced by Lloyd. Yaha auta sanu kura bhannu chha. Lloyd chalak manchay thiyo. Uslay pesh gareko dalil Lapchay bhasama thiyo tara Raja thiyo Bhotay. Parnay echchha bhayetapani parnu nasaknay. So, Saheblay kinachai chhal-kapat garchha hola bhannay biswasma Sikkimpatti Maharajalay lalmohor thoki baakshinu bhayo.
(6) ANNEXATION OF DARJEELING
Yes, now the only option left for the British was to militarily annex the areas south of the Rumman and Rungit Rivers and thereby get free access to the tract and also make the deed of grant a document of no importance, because Darjeeling would now be British through military victory and not because the Maharaja had granted it. The opportunity to strike at Sikkim came when Joseph Dalton Hooker, a botanist, and Campbell were arrested in Sikkim. Sikkim claimed that their entry was illegal and the British claimed that the Chogyal had issued them entry permits. Over this issue the British troops marched into Sikkim. Campbell and his soldiers crossed the Rangit River and stayed for several weeks along the northern bank. Sikkim did not contest and the troops returned and the British announced to the villagers that the area was now a property of the British government. This annexed area consisted of the Sikkim terai, and hill areas south of the Rumman Nadi, west of the Bara Rangit and Tista rivers and the hills to the east of the Nepal frontier.
Yaha auta thulo prashna aucha, question chha: Kay Hookerkoma Chogyallay diyeko permit sachinai thiyo ra? Permit raheko bhayay Sikkimko sarkari karmachari harulai kina dekhaunu sakena ya dekhayayna? Hamro paharko bisaya liyera Hooker saheblay dui wata moto moto kitabharu lekhnu bhayo jaha gumbako, phoolko, padam baas etyadiko assi wata jasto chitra chha tara tyo mahatapurna permitko kunai chitra chhaina. Permit nai thiyena bhanay chitra kaha bata chhapaunay. In 1983, 135 years after his arrest there was great excitement in England because some hand written manuscript in vernacular was found amongst some old papers of Sir Joseph Hooker. Could they be the permit issued by the Maharajah of Sikkim? Unable to read the script Xerox of the same was sent to my teacher and friend, the world famous linguist, Professor Richard Keith Sprigg. Eeesh, pramaan chha bhanna lai Angrez haru tayar bha-ay. Professor Sprigg had to inform his fellow Englishmen that the papers were not the permit but the accounts of daily purchases and other expenses. Tyo kaagzharu ta Hooker sahibko baidarbabulay prati dinko kharcha, samanko daam etyadi, Lepcha lipima lekhekopo raicha. Angrez haru aja pani praman khojdai chha bhanchha. Khojos! Paunay kaha bata!
(7) DARJEELING PUSHED INTO BENGAL
The present-day sub-division of Kalimpong along with the Duars became British property following the defeat of the Bhutanese in the Anglo-Bhutan war in November 1865. It was first put under the Deputy Commissioner of Western Duars but in 1866 it was transferred to the District of Darjeeling giving the district its final shape. Initially, this new district was treated differently and was designated as a “NON-REGULATION District” meaning any Act or Regulation passed in the Bengal Presidency did not come into force in district unless they were specially extended to it. In 1919 when the Government of India Act formed the Legislative Council, Darjeeling was not required to send a member to it. The district was excluded and declared a BACKWARD TRACT and the administration was under the Governor in Council. Even the administrative expenses were not required to be passed by Bengal Government. Furthermore, any Act passed by Bengal Government, which automatically extended to whole of Bengal, would not apply to Darjeeling if the Governor in Council decided to reject it. This in a very subtle way brought our hills a little closer to Bengal, because it also meant that any law passed by the Bengal Government could be applicable to Darjeeling if the Governor did not reject it. This arrangement lasted for another 15 years. Then the black year came and ironically that was Darjeeling’s centenary year under the British. The British Government passed an Act in 1935 requiring the three hill subdivisions to send a representative to Bengal Legislative Assembly and Dambarsingh Gurung became Darjeeling’s MLA to Bengal. Darjeeling was now pushed into Bengal.
Now we come to the final review: It is patent and historically authenticated that Darjeeling was never a part of Bengal. When Bengal was partitioned in 1905 our Bengali brothers claimed that no one was consulted, no opinion was entertained, no fore-warning was given and no explanation was provided. Bengal and the intellectuals of India rose up as one against the partition. Let our friends not forget that when Darjeeling was merged to Bengal no one was consulted, no opinion was entertained, and that no fore-warning was given and no explanation was provided. Keeping these facts in mind would it not be logical if Bengal joined us in saying “Gorkhaland hunu parcha”, “Shatyi, Gorkhaland huwa uuchit” po bhannu parnay. Why do Bengal politicians keep harping and shouting that Bengal will not be partitioned again. Creating Gorkhaland is not a partition but a just, realistic and honourable act of giving back what was never part of Bengal. Instead Bengal should apologize for holding on to the hills for so many years. Our language is different, our physiognomy or physical structure is different, our food habits, music, drama, dances, and clothes are different, the whole cultural milieu is different, even the Hinduism and Buddhism practiced by Bengal and Gorkhaland are different. Geographically we are in the hills and mountains and Bengal is in the plains and so our biology, zoology, climatology and even the associated benefits and disasters of the two regions are different. We do not share the same script, we do not share the same mentality and most of all we do not have a shared history. If we look back to the period before we were pushed, forcibly joined, attached without consent, and made a part of Bengal merely for the sake of administrative convenience we find that we shared no connection with Bengal. How can we share a common future when we do not share a common past! No amount of legislation, state power, gentle cajoling or even brute force can bind two people with uncommon history: Soviet Union is an example, Yugoslavia is an example and Gorkhaland will be another example. Finally, mailay hazurharuko dherai samai liyay, I would like to end with the words of a Bengali intellectual: “Happy Gorkhas in Gorkhaland are any day better for Bengalis than angry Gorkhas in Bengal.”
layman said
XYZ,
Do read this article and then review your present idea (AAAMRA BANGALI VERSION) of Gorkhaland and Gorkhas in India!
This is written by Dr. Sonam Wangyal, a notable historian.
If you skip it on the pretext of its tiresome length and keep on harping like a patient of lalochezia then do not expect a single answer from me. I prefer not to waste my time giving idiomatic sermons to an abecedarian!!!!
regs.
zyx said
Good point Layman. How long will it take for us to put into the thick-skulled brains of people like XYZ here that there were Gorkhas in Sikkim and Darjeeling long before the British came into the scene. The Limbus were part and parcel of this land along with the Lepchas and Bhutias from ancient times. Even Bengali historians have acknowledged that fact but not some people here.
+++
Tensung Namgyal became the next Chogyal (1670) … He married three times. … The third Rani was the daughter of a Limbu chief named Yong-Yong Hang. The royal History also says that along with the daughter of Yong-Yong Hang seven other Limbu ladies got married to “highest kazis and ministers of Sikkim.”
Maakoora said
This link, dated Friday the 13th, may not be out of place here EXCEPT prove bad omen to Xyz and his ilk :–
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/nov/14/inheritance-loss-desai-book-club
xyz said
Maakoora the Gorkha Spiderman
Pls forgive me kind sir, I couldn’t understand head or tail of the article forwarded by you.
Guardian of UK and Kiran Desai’s “Inheritance of loss” is too hi fi for us “Layman”. Can you give us something more down to earth and that doesn’t taxes our brains?
xyz said
Layman
Maakoora is on one end of the spectrum and you on the other.
Before I venture to read your Torah,Bible,Mahabharata all rolled into one and posted in #146 and #147 I would like to know who is this Dr.Sonam Wangyal? Is he a phd holder in Gorkha/Sikkim history? Or a homeopathic daktar in one of the dusty alleys of DJ? If that be the case how did he become “notable” historian? What is the credibility in what he writes (which happens to be in half Nepali and half English)? What is his source? A highly dubious and at the same time extremely rare book with a pedestrian title like “History of Sikkim” penned by a Maharani Dolma the Dolly which was again translated into something more intelligible by a “Kazi”?
It sounds like anyone and everyone is becoming “eminent” and “notable” historian nowadays.
GOI won’t refer to the hogwash and tripe dished out by likes of “Dr”Sonam Wangyal but go by govt records and official statistics. All which are heavily loaded against you.
You have comfortably discounted the presence of Indo Aryans for 1000s of years in these parts prior to arrival of Mongols from Tibet. Guess you might have heard of Angkor Vat world’s largest Hindu Temple in Cambodia which was built by Suryavarman II? That’s how far our reach was.And you think DJ was never part of Bengal when our presence extended to Afghanistan and Nepal? Even till today Thai language has lot of similarity with Indo Aryan Languages.
layman said
Maakoora is on one end of the spectrum and you on the other.
——————————————————————————————
Just as there are different wavelengths (frequency) in a spectrum, there are different people in the world. A violet has a different frequency, for example, than red even though they are at the extreme end of the visible spectrum (VIBGYOR) and they together look beautiful (e.g. rainbow). Moreover, even my wavelength were (suppose) as black as pitch; I would have been contented with what I was rather than turning to outwardly products such as FAIR & LOVELY!
That said, I don’t want to divulge your position in the spectrum as the preliminary results show that your emission is highly dubious and artifact-like.
patleybaskounpad said
xyz..
Dr. Wangyal is no professional historian…he is just a medical doctor whose passion leads him on to this intellectual exercise…
you will find his work readable, well written,much like a raconteur’s ramblings…but footnotes,annotations, references and bibliographies that one expects of a historical work are few and far in between…
but that being said, the fact remains that the history of the hills is not as simplistic as you imagine it to be…the region may be geographically small but the onus of ‘ownership’ has passed around so many times that it needs a fair bit intellectual doggedness and an unprejudiced mind to unravel the knots…
but yes i do agree with you on one count…and that is, in the hills tags such as ‘intellectual’ ‘historian’ etc are used quite loosely…because it goes without saying that the hills are deficient in highly educated folks with impeccable academic credentials…
hope that will change with GL…but will it???
layman said
1. You have comfortably discounted the presence of Indo Aryans for 1000s of years in these parts prior to arrival of Mongols from Tibet. Guess you might have heard of Angkor Vat world’s largest Hindu Temple in Cambodia which was built by Suryavarman II? That’s how far our reach was.And you think DJ was never part of Bengal when our presence extended to Afghanistan and Nepal? Even till today Thai language has lot of similarity with Indo Aryan Languages.
——————————————————————————————–
Any ways, I was amazed the way you are rewinding the history like a taxi meter in kolkta and claiming that Cambodia as a part of greater Bangladesh just because there is a trace of a ancient hindu temple there.
Why couldn’t you go back to the very inception of the world when there were just Adam and Eve and claimed that you are all products of incest as there was no other way to reproduce humans. But in the lighter shed, if we could retrace (of course we cant) the exact path from ‘us’ to ape, or say from ‘us’ to our two million old ancestors, to say the least, we could establish the relation between ourselves-perhaps even between Obama and Mahmud Ahmadinejad or Manmohan Singh and Gilani or Buddhadev Bhattacharjee and Bimal Gurung. Who knows?
I read a book on migration theory. It seems the earlier ‘humans’like Java man, Peking man, homo heidelbergenses and homo neanderthalansis have vanished altogether ever since the more proficient form of humans, homo sapiens evolved over hundred thousand years ago.
What happened to the duller and less proficient form (homo erectus) no body seems to have answers. Apparently (and interestingly) no sign of slaughter have been found either.
…….only certainty is that we are here they aren’t
So, your claim of Darjeeling being part of Bengalis based on a temple excavated in Cambodia is as silly as China not identifying Mcmohan line or Aksai Chin as a part of Sovereign India.
But it could work sometimes as it is natural that the big fish can eat smaller ones !
Lastly, I am not going to present the hagiography of Dr. Sonam Wangyal just because one “dukhi aatma”, as UP people put in thinks he is a Homiopathik daktar. All I tell you is, he is not the kind of historian you refer to-who come to Darjeeling with half of the sights blocked with robust folds of muffler and monkey cap!
Amen!
have a good day!
patleybaskounpad said
“Why couldn’t you go back to the very inception of the world when there were just Adam and Eve and claimed that you are all products of incest as there was no other way to reproduce humans.”
just one small technical point- Adam and Eve, were not brother and sister, neither were they father/daughter or mother/son…so that sort of preempts the possibility of their progeny being produced out of some incestuous union….
layman said
PBKU,
but yes i do agree with you on one count…and that is, in the hills tags such as ‘intellectual’ ‘historian’ etc are used quite loosely…
————————————
You see it “loose” because of the prevalent mind-set amongst hillians: “alu pani thulo phalyo bhane holland ko bhanccha”
And you are no exception!
layman said
156,
patley
I did not now you were that short-sighted, I am disappointed!
Ok, Adams and eve were “lovers-made in heaven” and not brother and sister, agreed.
They were also the only living humans present. Now think about the generation that will follow. Think about the son and daughter of Adam and eve, will they have any option except incest?
patleybaskounpad said
#157
i think your ignorance (or could be your attempt at humor) is taking you nowhere.. you first talked about black being a color ..then made that howler on the incest of Adam and Eve and now you are mistaking a hybrid variant of a large sized potato for a nationality…
layman said
know
patleybaskounpad said
Layman,
i suggest you stop trying to change the mindset of xyz the strain of those exertions are taxing your thinking ability, making you rude and belligerent…not to mention quite pompous and empty..
layman said
you first talked about black being a color
—————————————–
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I wrote:
Just as there are different wavelengths (frequency) in a spectrum, there are different people in the world. A violet has a different frequency, for example, than red even though they are at the extreme end of the visible spectrum (VIBGYOR) and they together look beautiful (e.g. rainbow). Moreover, even my wavelength were (suppose) as black as pitch; I would have been contented with what I was rather than turning to outwardly products such as FAIR & LOVELY!
That said, I don’t want to divulge your position in the spectrum as the preliminary results show that your emission is highly dubious and artifact-like.
Now, could you tell me where did I mention black as a color?
The only time I mentioned about black was—-even (if) my wavelength were (suppose) as black as pitch I would have been contented with what I was….
Please correct me if I am wrong!
theba said
PBKU,
In every thread where XYZ participates there is clear binary….XYZ’s Bangali upmanship versus larger Nepali/Gorkha world irrespective of which stock do you belong to just like Taliban’s fatwa on all things non islam or (kafir???). Does not matter whether you are of Khas Stock, Gurung, Newar, Bhote, Tamang, Hyolmo, Lepcha, Rai or Limbu.
He is completly ignorant of diversity of Nepali/Gorkha culture and also of common bonds and cultural traits that our castes, ethnic groups have been sharing for ages…
For guy like this how do you explain the complex intercultural relationships and adaptation of nature worshipping tribes like Rais, Limbus and Lepcha and thier ages of living toghether with Strictly Buddhist Bhutiyas or Bon Tamangs or with holier than thou Kumai Bahuns who consider themselves to be in highest echeleon of the Hindu Brahmin world.
For him all Nepali/Gorkha in his stereotypical perspective are Chinkis or Bahadurs and nothing more
Hence PBKU, Layman is doing is best to engage this guy so can we please not go on a tangent.
It is a world he chooses to live in.. Dark and with a Clear Binary.
Meanwhile XYZ can do his thing… GOO KHA ! and what else.
patleybaskounpad said
by implying that black has a wavelength you have unwittingly admitted that you consider it a color…
but only something that is emitted produces a spectra and hence a wavelength…
be that as it may , my apologies to you and could be get right back to the topic please…
thanks
XXX said
Well done,boys. Bravo !
Where s the drenched rat Xyz ?
jhumka laga re..... said
165.
withing urself, f##@kin ass wanna make us fool! goo kha
layman said
Where there is duty to speak silence is culpable. If people like XYZs are not replied back with fear of sounding oneself quarrelsome, rude, pompous and eventually empty in the process of altercation, then his bullshit will prevail.
I have no problem with Patley going tangential or perpendicular, but he has to give ample reasons to back his objections.
I raised a controversial point about Adam and Eve being the only (firsts) humans so there must have been incestuous relationship between their sons and daughters in order to continue cycle of human generation! That is based on my own imagination and not on the books on the shelf. Now, if he can prove me wrong with authentic references or logical explanation then I retract myself humbly!
He also raised a point about black being a non-color, is it possible to have explanation-scientific or literary, which he is good at- on that?
The issue of black being absence of color and non color is highly controversial. Just like mixing different complimentary colors you can make white, you can also make black by mixing three colors-red yellow and blue !
Just like the history of Darjeeling, where “onus of ‘ownership’ has passed around so many time” to put in his word the theory of black being a non-color is a subject that has no absolute answer!
——————–
That said, I really respect PAtley’s knowledge and I appreciate his tangential punctuations!
have a great day!
patleybaskounpad said
Layman…
Your submission that there is much controversy about what comprises ‘color’ is quite correct…a lot of folks, Newton, Goethe, Einstein and Raman to name of few have spent time on it..
but i think a chapter called “Do Martian see red?” in cognitive scientist Ramachandran’s book puts the matter into perspective by invoking the idea of a concept called ‘qualia’..
he uses the example of color to bring up the age old subjective versus objective debate regarding the ultimate nature of truth..Ramachandran puts it like this:
“The central mystery of cosmos, as far as I am concerned is the following: why are there always two parallel descriptions of the universe- the first person account (i see red) and the third person account (he says he sees red when certain pathways in his brain encounter a wavelength of 600 nanometres)..etc…”
cannot there be a reconcilement between the first and third person accounts of the universe??
of course when you give us that subtractive theory of mixing colors i know where the problem is lying…you are talking about the color of pigments while i was talking about the color of light…so my definition of black is when no visible light (there will be other forms of radiation, in fact the idea of quanta which was conceived by Planck to explain certain observations in Black body radiation was used by Einstein for his theory on photo electricity) is coming from an object…
at this point i would like to make a small digression…when we were kids our science teachers made us do the ‘blind spot’ experiment…move your one eye about a black dot and the dot will disappear…but does the dot disappearing mean that we are not seeing anything?..no we ’see’ the white background of the page…what does that mean?..well even when we don’t ’see’ anything we are seeing something because sight is not just a visual thing..in fact it is very much the involvement of the brain, which in this case has ‘filled in’ to allow us to ’see’ the white background of the page even when our eye is insensitive to light….
does xyz’s brain allows him to fill in things ? well we don’t know…
and lastly about the incest bit…incest the word is derived from incestus which in latin means unchastity…the reason why incest is taboo amongst most cultures is because inbreeding weakens the stock…well more than that later…
but think about this..I may say all Indians are my brothers and sisters..does that mean…??..you get the point…
Maakoora said
How, if one may ask, can the protagonists of Gorkhaland quell this misconception and fear in the minds of people represented by Xyz and the like, that THEY may be in the receiving end of “The Inheritence of Loss” – so to speak?
Tarantula said
XYZ need not fear,
Big brothers are here!
neophyte said
i refuse to believe that GL is a pill for the disease of confused identity..the identity is not confused, the real problem is the economics..and since everyone looks for their own El Dorado, so it is for the people of the hills…till the new installment of disillusionment that is..
____________________
TRUE. nobody calls ME a foreigner, even if they do, who the f&&% cares? But yes going hungry definitely pisses me off.
zyx said
nobody calls ME a foreigner, even if they do, who the f&&% cares?
+++
People do care, Neophyte.
Xxx said
#166
who s dis ‘enuch’ hellhole ?? transgender sala.
layman said
Dear Patley,
If I were to put forward my own argument- the concept of qualia seeks to make things complicated in pursuit of the order within chaos while on the other hand the concept of quanta actually addresses the core issue of the order in the chaos, even though it could appear complicated for the abecedarians of science !
Of course when I emphasize- order and chaos, not to be veered off oneself towards realm of thermodynamics-entropy. I am not a critic of qualia, but I am not its proponent either.
But I agree sometime its fun to have abstracter dimension of the things we perceive as they are!
To simplify what I said above in PBKUian terms, the qualia is a philosophical term and it is so philosophical that its own definition is not fixed; it changes its state (pun not intended). That said I hold no generalized view that any complicated theory is a non-sense as I am clearly aware of the situations where there was just a handful of people in the whole world who could grasp one of the greatest theories any mankind has ever conceived such as theory of relativity. But I liked the way; you walked me through avenues of qualia in the light of black being a non-color!
As a joke: for a scientist: black is not a color but white is, for an artist: black is a color white isn’t. Does not ‘what is it like? state of mind’ (qualia) contradicts in this particular example your own argument?
And about the pigments and lights. Small argument: in my opinion it should not matter whether you are superimposing three different lights (of three different wavelengths) or physically mixing three different pigments–red yellow and blue, it should still produce a “non color” black.
Regs,
layman
layman said
169
How, if one may ask, can the protagonists of Gorkhaland quell this misconception and fear in the minds of people represented by Xyz and the like, that THEY may be in the receiving end of “The Inheritence of Loss” – so to speak?
————————————————–
Dear makoora,
As it goes: with Maharashtra for Maharashtrians, Bengal for Benaglese and Kashmir for Kashmiris,
where is India for Indians?
This is one of the core issues why sporadic demands like Gorkhaland, Kamtapur spring up. If one
wants to rubbish the idea of new states, he or she has to explain it in the light of several existing states
which clearly represent only a certain group of people.
Coming to your apprehension about the FEAR of xyzs, I don’t think handlers of 26/11 attacked mumbai out of fear of India finding their hideouts and killing them all. These AAMRAs and HAMARAS attack anything that is even remotely TUMARAS (others)–out of chauvinism, sense of superiority and pathetic sense of IGO. And safeguarding oneself through whatever means we have at our disposal is the only option. Gorkhaland is the name !
And…the inheritance loss is, as once Anmole Prasad said, only about losses and not about people of
Kalimpong and their real problems. This goes parallel to what the author herself has expressed recently (courtesy: The Guardian book club): “History is only someone’s story. I felt as if I were writing to displace myself, and to know that my story wasn’t the only one – that there would always be other books on the shelf”
Have a great day!!!
layman said
EGO
Maakoora said
Phoenix Within said
@Layman
You have written about xyz in #153: “That said, I don’t want to divulge your position in the spectrum as the preliminary results show that your emission is highly dubious and artifact-like.”
And well yes, the position of the AAMRA BANGALIS in Bengal politics is certainly dubious whereas the demand for “Gorkhaland” in the hills is a stark reality… talking about India and ‘Indians’ is this the correct course to follow ? I think a better option would be to strive for more integration within and exploration of other identities than merely the communal ones for all of us ….and I would agree that the real problem is the economics….
And also that it is important to understand really where our priorities lie…
patleybaskounpad said
” I think a better option would be to strive for more integration within and exploration of other identities than merely the communal ones for all of us ….and I would agree that the real problem is the economics….”
when a person is born, the first identity by default is that one is human (over which one has no control)..then there is that identity that accrues from sex (this can be changed but is not as easy …)..then come other secondary identities such as ethnicity (this one is a thought problem..say ‘xyz’ is actually a Nepali but has been brought up in a non nepali household and that other rabid influences have shaped his world view..)…
the point is the only identity that really matters is the ‘economic’ identity…
heartless as it may sound, economics underpins ones identity…there are for example rickshaw pullers in kolkota who earn say a dollar a day..can they shine in the reflected glory of sen’s Nobel prize..(much the can a gorkha do so in a VCs shadow)?….
anyway Layman will come back to you on the matter of qualia and color..
Phoenix Within said
@PBKU
Well, as I have said earlier, I would identify myself with almost anybody else who comes to blog here at beacon, irrespective of caste, creed, community or gender ….. as people with (more or less) same kind of upbringing in middle-class households…. than with say ‘my community’ members in other income brackets…. as hard as it may sound!
So, as JTM wrote, what we have here is indeed a community as imagined and real as any in the ‘real’ world…
patleybaskounpad said
PW..
there is just one small technical point..at Beacon, the ‘caste, creed, community or gender”..that you so magnanimously want to ‘identify’ with, may not be what they seem..’hard as it may sound’…
the only thing that matters here and are worth commenting upon are ‘opinions’…
Phoenix Within said
As usual, you are right……………
patleybaskounpad said
#182
but that doesn’t mean ‘good’ souls such as yourself , JTM, Theba, Layman, Makoora and even xyz shouldn’t keep commenting…i ‘admire’ xyz for one simple reason – he isn’t hypocritical..he has quite faithfully and relentlessly been his ‘obnoxious’ self (at least for some) (in spite of Theba’s binaries..)
..my contention is that he fulfills an important function ( i am tempted to appropriate a ‘vulture’ analogy) …i just hope he is an agent out of his own free will and not a planted program…
Phoenix Within said
#183.
Talking of ‘xyz’, it seems that the FBI has finally got to him…. what do you say ?
patleybaskounpad said
what is FBI? (and please nothing that insinuates a FIB)..
Phoenix Within said
tck
I never knew ……
layman said
I think a better option would be to strive for more integration within and exploration of other identities than merely the communal ones for all of us ….and I would agree that the real problem is the economics….
And also that it is important to understand really where our priorities lie…
——————————————————
Dear PW,
Is it possible to be a little clear and straight forward on your “more integration within” and “exploration of other identities” ?
In a sensitive issue such as this “intricacy in expression” and hence “ambiguity in its interpretation” is a curse (no offense meant to patley though) !
regs,
Tufan Express said
Someitimes I fill like I am amomgest gays.
patleybaskounpad said
#188
i hope your spelling is better than your speculations about your sexuality..
Phoenix Within said
@Layman
The problem is that
the cuss of blogging with people who talk in innuendoes, left, right and centre – you begin to see ‘quanta’ even where there is none…… no offences meant to PBKU though.
regs,
patleybaskounpad said
PW
i think you meant ‘qualia’
Phoenix Within said
and ‘qualia’
oops, I got a zombie in my brain! I feel terrible!
patleybaskounpad said
the zombie is supposed to make you quite ambivalent to matter and sensations such as ‘terrible’…about words ( and profanities) for that matter, i suggest that you read steven Pinker and ‘things that you are not supposed to say on TV’ or something like that ( the stuff of thought)
Phoenix Within said
@PBKU
So, definitely not a zombie you say ? Then it must be the Martian from Ramachandran’s last chapter…. hence the confusion with the qualia…
Well, never mind. Just some random thoughts…
Phoenix Within said
#187. Layman
Dear Friend,
Sorry. I think I should have explained better your quiry at #187.
I wrote, “I think a better option would be to strive for more integration within and exploration of other identities than merely the communal ones for all of us”
I was talking of national integration. An attempt to see people as people with many various indentities, and not just the communal ones. Yes, economic identity is very imp., but so are our gender, religious, educational, job, culinary, extra curricular interests and beliefs. I may love veg. food and if I am going to dine out with somebody for instance, my identity as a vegetarian would surely become more imp. than say my identity as a bengali!
As I have already demonstrated here in beacon, many ‘other’ identities can be just as important as our communal ones. Well, it is to me ! Exploring and understanding other identities help to prevent ‘miniaturisation’ of people into community ‘boxes’, something that would perhaps help ‘binaries’ like xyz to adjust better in a changing world.
Hope I made made myself a bit clear.
regs,
Phoenix Within said
oops:last line read
Hope I made myself a bit clearer.
regs,
Maakoora said
Past experiences have convinced people of Darjeeling and Dooars that Bengal can never be trusted for their welfare. Integration is a two-way affair. It is too late for the process even to begin now, because the collective memory of over past five generations is there to vouchsafe this feeling deeply ingrained in the masses. It does not require a social scientist to figure that out. We, the aam aadmi are sick and tired of Bengal’s hegemony and their colonial absentee landlordism.
Enlightened and politically dynamic Aam aadmi of Darjeeling and Dooars are now fulfilling the nagarik dharma and are poised for speeding up the process of nation building by providing for themselves the platform for “joining the mainstream”. Separating for integration, if you like !!
PJ said
xyz said
November 12, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Dear Pajama (PJ)
How come a Nepali living more than 7 years in Nepal be an Indian? LOL
Now what can i say to such an idiotic argument. You should probably go to some rehab centre.
GWS said
@XYZ, At least PJ is still being loyal to India although hs is working in Nepal, not like you who is eating the roti in India but still thinking of Bangladesh.
JTM said
How come millions of Indians living abroad still hold their Indian passports or take dual citizenships whom the Govt welcomes with NRI status to invest money back in India?
Pompous Functionary Rob Bironas at Jack's Writing Site said
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